Independence Day for Slugs NO MORE HYBRIDS

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   NoSUV, I never said that HOV lanes should carry only hybrids or busses, but, as usual, you have twisted the discussion to suit your interests. Instead, HOV lanes should be restricted to vehicles that maximize ridership and Passenger MPGs. Hey, wait a minute, they are! And why should hybrid drivers wait for legislation to do the right thing and pick up passengers? Hmmmm, I guess its because NoSUV says so.

	And FYI, those who cannot afford hybrids likely cannot afford mass transit either. Ex. my roundtrip metro commute is $11.45 per day, or about $240.00 per month, or about $2800.00 per year. Who can afford that? No thanks, I'd rather send my kids to college! 

	But what about those who choose not to buy hybrids? Should we be punished based on our buying decision? NoSUV, are you advocating descrimination on the basis of socio-economic status, or based on consumer habits? That is what the hybrid exemption amounts to! And that is what your argument leads to. I'm sorry, NoSUV, I will not have you look down your long, warty, crooked nose at me and say that I am a second class citizen because I cannot or do not buy a hybrid.

	BTW, if you do not participate in slugging, why are you participating in a discussion on these slug-line forums? That's kind of like a skinny person attending weight watcher meetings and criticizing the other attendees.

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n/a Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 17 Dec 2001 Location: VA Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote n/a Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 31 Jul 2006 at 10:45am
	NoSUV, I never said that HOV lanes should carry only hybrids or busses, but, as usual, you have twisted the discussion to suit your interests. Instead, HOV lanes should be restricted to vehicles that maximize ridership and Passenger MPGs. Hey, wait a minute, they are! And why should hybrid drivers wait for legislation to do the right thing and pick up passengers? Hmmmm, I guess its because NoSUV says so. And FYI, those who cannot afford hybrids likely cannot afford mass transit either. Ex. my roundtrip metro commute is $11.45 per day, or about $240.00 per month, or about $2800.00 per year. Who can afford that? No thanks, I'd rather send my kids to college! But what about those who choose not to buy hybrids? Should we be punished based on our buying decision? NoSUV, are you advocating descrimination on the basis of socio-economic status, or based on consumer habits? That is what the hybrid exemption amounts to! And that is what your argument leads to. I'm sorry, NoSUV, I will not have you look down your long, warty, crooked nose at me and say that I am a second class citizen because I cannot or do not buy a hybrid. BTW, if you do not participate in slugging, why are you participating in a discussion on these slug-line forums? That's kind of like a skinny person attending weight watcher meetings and criticizing the other attendees.

NoSUV Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 14 Jan 2005 Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote NoSUV Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 31 Jul 2006 at 12:01pm
	raymond - using your logic, there should be no expectation that those who choose the lifestyle afforded by living further out should have free rides - and not have to pay for their commuting costs. Sort of reminds me of the morons who buy cheap houses by airports and then complain about the noise. You chose to have larger property for the price, so you should acknowledge that you have to pay for your commuting costs. So - get on the bus! IF you must have a vehicle, it should be as good as possible for the environment. Since you are selfishly looking out for only yourself and preserving a free ride, it is clear that you need some sort of incentive other than the fact (and I do mean FACT) that you are personally responsible for worsening the environment by refusing to get a SULEV. Since minimal tax funded rebates/credits aren't getting your attention, the next best thing is to legislate it for you. Hybrid Only Vehicle High Occupancy Lanes might do the trick - with an exemption for public transportation. In short, raymond, you made several buying decisions - you could have lived within non-private vehicle range of your work - but you chose to have a different quality of living. Oh, yeah - the lanes do NOT restrict to vehicles that maximize ridership. That would be buses. If you don't agree, then, by extension, you are in favor of 2 seat vehicles using the express lanes during commuting hours as long as both seat are full. And that's not the case, either. And, as long as you vent against the hybrid exemption, I'll be here.

MDC Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 04 Dec 2002 Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote MDC Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 31 Jul 2006 at 3:10pm
	NoSUV, Your argument is false. Hybrids are not the cleanest vehicles available for one. If that were the deciding factor, then you would be driving a CNG powered car. SULEV being a determining factor? You sure about that? For example, the 2005 Pontiac Grand Prix, and Buick Lacrosse with 3800 series III V6 engines are SULEV. I'm sure there are many others in 2006-2007 models.

n/a Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 17 Dec 2001 Location: VA Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote n/a Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 01 Aug 2006 at 8:33am
	Well NoSUV, if I made the wrong buying decision by not choosing a hybrid, then 99.99% of auto buyers also made the wrong decision. That clearly puts hybrid buyers in the minority (but you knew that!) And I won't criticize you for your effort to do what you thought was right for the environment (the way you criticize me). However misguided your attempt, you tried, and I appreciate that. So please do not criticize those of us who do not share your zeal with the band-aid solution you have chosen. We all won't be so easily manipulated into buying the latest trendy marketing gimick. And if I made the wrong decision to live where I have to commute 20 miles into DC each day, then about 500,000 of my fellow Fairfax County homeowners also made the same mistake. But I thought this was a free country! I thought I was allowed to live where I chose! How could so many people make the same mistake? Wait, I know, we all made quality of life decisions. Eureka, that's it! Fairfax County is a NICE place to live! Beautiful parks, hills and trees, good schools, nice neighbors. Wow! How could anyone call that choice a mistake?! Hmmmm, I must have moved into NoSUVainya by mistake, where everyone must look like and think like NoSUV, and where those who think differently are criticized and discriminated against. Unfortunately, NoSUVainya is not a place where people have freedom of choice. It is also not a place where the laws and elected officials protect the rights of the majority. It is where decisions are made that protect NoSUV and NoSUV's special interests, disregarding the needs of the populace. People don't make very good choices there; they are easily manipulated into following trendy fads, they pay too much for obsolete technology, they ride one person to a vehicle and clog up the traffic lanes. They only care about what suits them, they are very selfish! Who wants to live in NoSUVainya? Not me!

May Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 29 Aug 2005 Location: VA Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote May Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 01 Aug 2006 at 9:43am
	I have heard that hybrid cars do well with miles per gallon in the city but not the highway. Is that true? If it is, I don't see any reason they should be allowed to cruise on HOV without meeting the passenger limit. quote: Originally posted by raymond [br]In another forum someone thought up an interesting comparison method: "Passenger Miles Per Gallon" which multiplies the vehicle MPG times the number of passengers (since each passenger travels the distance covered by the vehicle). For example: a SOV hybrid may achieve 40 MPG, which is also 40 "Passenger MPGs" or one passenger traveling 40 miles on a gallon. However, an HOV non-hybrid with 4 passengers that gets only 25 MPG would tally 100 PMPG (25 MPG x 4 passengers) for a 150% increase in fuel economy over the SOV hybrid! If NoSUV actually cared about the fuel economy arguments NoSUV defends, NoSUV would carpool or pick up slugs. Imagine the PMPGs if your hybrid carried 4 passengers! 40 MPG x 4 passengers = 160 PMPG, or a 300% increase in fuel economy over NoSUV's SOV commute! Plus you would take three other vehicles off the road reducing traffic congestion. Since NoSUV is locked into the "hybrids are the answer to our problems" mindset, NoSUV may want to consider these as real options that can improve things today! No way around it, these are strong arguments for HOV commuting!

122582 Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 28 Apr 2005 Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote 122582 Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 01 Aug 2006 at 10:10am
	Let's rethink the exemption and allow only vehicles with 50 + MPG EPA estimates cruise the HOV in SOV mode. Keep slugging alive - tip your driver today!

NoSUV Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 14 Jan 2005 Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote NoSUV Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 01 Aug 2006 at 10:20am
	May, You heard wrong. My hybrid gets GREAT mileage on the highway - better than city. Of course, there is a breakpoint where inefficiencies are realized. For example, when I try to keep up with the traffic in the express lanes during commuting hours and it's going 75+, I get worse mileage than when going the speed limit. I seem to recall that conventional vehicles have the same problem.

n/a Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 17 Dec 2001 Location: VA Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote n/a Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 01 Aug 2006 at 10:30am
	Welcome to the discussion, May. One answer to your question lies in the technology system used. Most hybrids use their electric motors at low speeds and at times of low power demands, like stop and go city driving, while switching to their gas engine at highway speeds. So their fuel effeciency is lower in highway use than in city driving. In this case, you have made a correct assumption and hybrids do not get better "highway" MPG than another comparable car. But because their reported MPG is averaged across varying usage patterns, including city and highway driving, hybrids can 'report' better overall MPG. The reality is that when the gas engine is running at highway speeds they are just like any other car. So although hybrids operate just like any other gas burning car in the HOV lanes, they are exempt from common sense HOV requirements. These exemptions allow hybrid owners to sleep better at night in blissful ignorance and eco-self-justification, while we, the informed, wisely HOV commute (and hybrid marketers laugh all the way to the bank)! Yes May, the truth is that the emperor wears no clothes, and hybrids are just another version of fossil fuel burning cars.

NoSUV Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 14 Jan 2005 Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote NoSUV Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 01 Aug 2006 at 12:40pm
	raymond - actually, your assumption on how hybrids work is wrong. During highway driving, unless you are stomping on the accelerator, it's possible and probable that the electric motor is receiving power from either/or the gas engine or the battery. If the battery is at a full charge and you are accelerating slowly, even at 70+ mph the gas engine can be idling while the battery provides the power to the motor. Also, at times, it could be a combination of both the battery and the gas engine, with both providing power to the motor. The rest of your assumptions are similarly false - what can be called error carried forward. Those times when I've been solely on the highway for the entire tank of gas, my hybrid has exceeded mpg from either just city or a combination of city and highway use. Just like a conventional car. raymond, what you need to do is get a hybrid so you can learn that your assumptions are wrong. That is, unless you are living in the Dark Ages and feel that knowledge is to be feared.

MDC Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 04 Dec 2002 Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote MDC Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 01 Aug 2006 at 4:02pm
	Hybrid owners shouldn't count on the computer in their car for determining their MPG at any point during their trip. It's there for entertainment purposes. I'm sure there is a disclaimer in the owner's manual. If the manufacturer says that they get better city MPG than highway MPG, I'm prone to believe them.