Independence Day for Slugs NO MORE HYBRIDS
Printed From: Slug-Lines.com
Category: Archived Slugging Topics
Forum Name: Hybrids
Forum Description: This area is devoted to the discussion of hybrid vehicles and their impact to the HOV.
URL: http://www.slug-lines.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2792
Printed Date: 15 May 2024 at 8:48am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.10 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Independence Day for Slugs NO MORE HYBRIDS
Posted By: Bob
Subject: Independence Day for Slugs NO MORE HYBRIDS
Date Posted: 05 Jul 2006 at 8:52am
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As many Americans celebrated US Independence Day, I was quietly celebrating our independence from any additional onslaught of hybrids. While we still have the old hybrids, we now have independence from having to look at new "smugs" with their brand new cutesy Prius's or hybrid SUVs with paper tags. And to those of you who cynically bought to get in under the wire I say: Enjoy it now because your days are numbered, and that will be even more obvious come August /September when the daily HOV jams are back.
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Replies:
Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 05 Jul 2006 at 11:07am
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What daily HOV jams? They are as rare as a hybrid parked in the commuter lot!
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Posted By: Bob
Date Posted: 05 Jul 2006 at 12:48pm
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HOV traffic is down at least 25 percent in the early summer (probably 50 percent this week). That gets us back to where we were a few years ago before the hybrids. So we get a feel for how it will be when we boot them out for good.
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Posted By: n/a
Date Posted: 05 Jul 2006 at 1:13pm
"In-season," as recently as a few weeks ago, HOV back-ups were VERY common, especialy in the morning. About as common as NoSUV's daily half-baked, self-serving arguments in favor of SOV hybrids in the HOVs. My guess is that NoSUV does not commute via I-395-N, otherwise NoSUV would get caught in the snarls just like the rest of us. And if you think I-395-N is bad, you should try I-66. My sympathies to I-66 commuters!
NoSUV seems to be the only one supporting the "pro-SOV hybrid in HOV lanes" debate, at least in this forum, with the obvious exception of the hybrid manufacturers who have put big $$ behind their marketing campaigns. But we all know that they just want to sell cars. Auto manufacturers will build any kind of car that sells regardless of the negative impact to our environment, our independence, our security, or our finances. And right now, hybrids are a hot seller. But, as spokesperson for the hybrid manufacturers lobby, NoSUV knows that.
Of course the smart money is looking ahead to the next evolution in technology, which is alternative and renewable fuels. Combine carpooling/slugging in low emmission, bio-diesel or ethanol vehicles and we are starting to address the real problems.
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Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 05 Jul 2006 at 2:57pm
raymond, does it make sense to you that if I were the only supporter of the hybrid exemption that its extension would pass the legislature with such an overwhelming majority?
I travel I-395 nearly daily, and with varying times for the return trip outbound. The express lanes nearly always travel above the speed limit for both the morning commute and the afternoon commute. Coming into DC, there is a knuckle that SpongeBob discussed over a year ago dealing with the Pentagon off ramp - which has nothing to do with hybrids and everything to do with poor engineering.
However, few vehicles are going less than 70 mph as you zip past exits 3-7.
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Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 05 Jul 2006 at 3:02pm
quote:
Originally posted by Bob
[br]HOV traffic is down at least 25 percent in the early summer (probably 50 percent this week). That gets us back to where we were a few years ago before the hybrids. So we get a feel for how it will be when we boot them out for good.
That traffic reduction in early summer clearly had nothing to do with the hybrid legislation. Obviously, a mistake was made by eliminating it for new purchases. Why in the world would you think it is a good thing to have miles of empty pavement in the express lanes when the regular lanes are so jammed?
I well remember your posts leading to the 06 legislative session, and your dead wrong predictions then. Unless you can convince the slug drivers to slow down and cause unnecessary congestion, there will be no justification for EVER ending the hybrid exemption.
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Posted By: n/a
Date Posted: 06 Jul 2006 at 8:35am
I agree, NoSUV, that many consumers have voted with their wallets by buying hybrids. And I appreciate their initiative to take action to do what they feel is a positive step in solving the many problems associated with fossil fuel consumption. But the reality is that we cannot "buy" our way out of this mess. As I have said, I applaude the fact that people generally want to do the right thing. However, most do not know what the right thing is and are influenced by marketers who tout hybrids as the answer to our problems.
Unfortunately, science and economics tell us that hybrids are not the answer. And while marketers have the advantage of well-funded advertising programs designed to polish and promote their propaganda, science and economics has not the means to fight such a publicity battle. So the "feel-good" message we hear is "go green with a hybrid," and many well-meaning consumers respond like sheep being herded to the checkout stand, by lining up to buy a hybrid (did we see you in that line?).
Once again, I am not a "hybrid basher," nor do I hate hybrid owners, but I think hybrids are a distraction from real solutions to our complex problems. I also think that marketers have taken advantage of the "activist sentiment" sweeping the nation by promoting hybrids as some sort of cure for our foriegn oil addiction and our polution problems. Locally, marketers have positioned hybrids as a traffic congestion relief pill. By definition, all of these approaches are radical; a proposed simple solution to complex problems.
The local hybrid exemption is a small issue relative to the larger and much more important issues associated with foriegn fossil fuel consumption and traffic congestion.
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Posted By: Bob
Date Posted: 06 Jul 2006 at 10:16am
I dont consider the hybrid exemption to be a minor issue at all and here's why. We are at a crossroads in the U.S. with highway transportation and what we are going to do to prevent absolute gridlock in 10 to 20 years in cities such as Washington. What we have with hybrid and HOT are special interests sticking their feet in the door to hijack HOV lanes. How we respond to it in the DC region is important, as governments around the country are looking at DC as a test bed of what works and what creates gridlock. Hybrid is important nationally for the ridiculous and unnecessary tax credits that everyone is paying for, including MacDonalds employees.
So count me in as a hybrid basher if you want to use the term, because this is indeed a very important national issue.
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Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 06 Jul 2006 at 1:48pm
Bob - of course, the real solution is to ban ALL private vehicles. Ask how many lanes have been added over the past 20 years, and compare that with the number of people who need to use those lanes. Has the transportation capability kept up with the population growth? Has there really been ANY significant improvement in transportation?
I think not. So, this crossroads to which you refer - since the population growth isn't slowing, does that mean that more lanes need to be built? Or should we instead revert to HOV-40?
Actually, HOT brings us much closer to the solution of not having to give up more property for roads. Hop on public transportation and avoid the tolls and congestion. If fact, if we just look to what governments AROUND THE WORLD have done, we can clearly see far better examples of how to control congestion - after all, if the "slug" method was so good, don't you suppose that in 30 years of use that another place (NYC, LA, London, Paris, Madrid, Berlin, Tokyo...) would have picked it up?
But, if we MUST drive a private vehicle, we need to set the national example that ALL vehicles owned and operated in the region will contribute as little as possible to polution. What we have in government is NOT special interests, but great Americans who are trying to solve several problems at once - while creating the tiny concern that slugs may not have free rides anymore.
So, either get on the bus or get a hybrid. Make your world better.
And, yes, I believe that something better will eventually come along. It's not ethanol. It may be hydrogen. Shoot, it may be wind/solar power. But we need to live in the here and now, stop sitting around, and do what is right for our planet. Today, we can measure our success by the hybrids parked in the commuter lot.
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Posted By: n/a
Date Posted: 06 Jul 2006 at 2:10pm
OK Bob, fair enough, I agree that the eyes of the nation are on us, and that we may set a precidence for traffic control policy in other major cities. I also agree that politicians have jumped on the hybrid bandwagon, and are hot to HOT our HOV lanes. BTW, both of these positions serves the special interests involved at the expense of the populace (a good indication of where our politicos' loyalties lie).
But is NoSUV really advocating the "no private vehicles in HOV lanes," "everyone drive a hybrid," "hydrogen powered cars in our lifetime" and "HOT solves our traffic congestion problems" positions? Man, NoSUV must have really taken a knock on the head last weekend! Talk about radical, and unrealistic. I can't even rationalize an argument against these claims because they are so far out there. Let's resume this talk when NoSUV gets back from vacation in Fantasyland!
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Posted By: rodmunera
Date Posted: 06 Jul 2006 at 2:48pm
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NoSUV is baked on Hybrid fumes! [:)]
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Posted By: N_or_S_bound
Date Posted: 07 Jul 2006 at 9:01am
quote:
Originally posted by NoSUV
[br]What daily HOV jams? They are as rare as a hybrid parked in the commuter lot!
NoSUV,
Tell everyone your "sample size" portion of the HOV first, then allow them to draw their own conclusions about your implied statement contained in your quoted question.
I would assert one would need to ride the entire HOV S-N am and N-S pm at different times to make a more accurate assertion concerning "HOV jams".
NoSb
SOV because you can, HOV because you care!
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Posted By: tangelo53
Date Posted: 14 Jul 2006 at 2:11pm
quote:
Originally posted by NoSUV
[br]They are as rare as a hybrid parked in the commuter lot!
You obviously haven't been to the Rt 610 lot!!!
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Posted By: ronin718
Date Posted: 20 Jul 2006 at 8:19am
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One thing NoSUV would probably not want to admit is that he'd get better MPG if he had is happy little hybrid butt over in the regular lanes than driving at 70+ MPH in the HOV lanes. That right there is probably the biggest reason the hybrid exemption should've been revoked. The whole purpose of the HOV exemption was for clean fuel vehicles, not hybrids that need to burn gas while cruising at highway speed.
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Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 20 Jul 2006 at 11:57am
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ronin - you don't know what you are talking about. Hybrids get better mileage on the highway than stop and go. Try to use facts instead of make believe.
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Posted By: tangelo53
Date Posted: 20 Jul 2006 at 12:20pm
quote:
Originally posted by NoSUV
[br]ronin - you don't know what you are talking about. Hybrids get better mileage on the highway than stop and go. Try to use facts instead of make believe.
Are you sure about that? My boss has a Hybrid and he said the opposite. He said that you use gas when you press the pedal to accelerate and when driving at higher speeds. Electric kicks in when you hit the brake (as in stop and go traffic), right?
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Posted By: MDC
Date Posted: 20 Jul 2006 at 2:55pm
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NoSUV has a special hybrid. He probably gets better mileage when he turns off the air conditioning and opens the windows too. Was that you I saw earlier this week? :p
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Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 20 Jul 2006 at 3:21pm
Hmmm, lets review some basic physics. When you push down on the accelerator that means you are accelerating. When you are accelerating, that means you are increasing speed. When you are not accelerating, that means you are either going at a constant speed or decelerating. On my “special” hybrid, my electric motor is run by dual sources: a battery and a gas powered engine. When I don’t accelerate, my motor is not run exclusively by gas. Even at express lane speeds.
Ask your boss what happens when he isn't speeding up. He should notice that the electric motor is powered by the battery. And, yes, the battery is charged when braking, when decelerating, and when you stomp on the gas pedal and the motor must go full bore.
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Posted By: N_or_S_bound
Date Posted: 21 Jul 2006 at 7:36am
Ok, one must grant in this all though that the gas/elec hybrid gets better "gas mileage" in stop/go traffic than cruising at 75 mph or some similar highway cruising speed.
The physics of that is gas/elecs (GEs) use battery power even while accelerating to a certain degree. In any case, the physics here show that batteries are used at the lower speeds of stop/go traffic than at cruise speed.
A search of fueleconomy.gov indicates most of the hybrids getting better gas mileage in "city" than "highway" ratings. I'm pretty sure most of us understand the difference between the two, but for the uninitiated, the stop&go of 395/95 more closely approximates "city" driving than does the HIGHWAY cruising speeds of 395/95 (except where gummed up by too many SOVs of all types).
For a geewhiz, my two vehicles get about the mpg rating fueleconomy.gov indicates they get. In my small sample size, their data is fairly accurate.
NoSb
SOV because you can, HOV because you care!
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Posted By: scottt
Date Posted: 21 Jul 2006 at 8:13am
quote:
Originally posted by NoSUV
[br]ronin - you don't know what you are talking about. Hybrids get better mileage on the highway than stop and go. Try to use facts instead of make believe.
Guess you didn't check the gas mileage on the window sticker (how's that for a fact) when you paid the small fortune over the price of a regular car for your Hybrid.
Enjoy your ride in the HOV lanes, while it lasts. I pray the VA state house has the brass not to mess with the July 1 2007 expiration date.
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Posted By: sluDgE
Date Posted: 21 Jul 2006 at 8:51am
I saw somewhere that Highway/City hybrid mileage depends on which type of hybrid system the car uses. Different brands of cars use different systems.
In some, the gas engine runs all the time and the highway mileage is actually better than the city.
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Posted By: N_or_S_bound
Date Posted: 21 Jul 2006 at 11:52am
True sludge. That's why going to the website and checking on individual vehicles is useful. The ones that get higher hwy than city are only marginally better which is interesting. My car & truck do MUCH better on the hwy than city driving. Clear out the HOV of SOV and watch the amount of fuel saved!
NoSb
SOV because you can, HOV because you care!
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Posted By: ronin718
Date Posted: 26 Jul 2006 at 10:41am
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See, I told you NoSUV wouldn't want to admit the gas mileage disparity. As scottt pointed out, one simply needs to look at the sticker on the hybrids in the dealer lots to see the numbers.
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Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 27 Jul 2006 at 7:44am
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However, one only has to look at the onboard computer to see the ACTUAL mileage for given conditions. I get better mileage on the interstate. How about it hybrid owners? Anyone see anything different?
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Posted By: n/a
Date Posted: 27 Jul 2006 at 8:16am
In another forum someone thought up an interesting comparison method: "Passenger Miles Per Gallon" which multiplies the vehicle MPG times the number of passengers (since each passenger travels the distance covered by the vehicle). For example: a SOV hybrid may achieve 40 MPG, which is also 40 "Passenger MPGs" or one passenger traveling 40 miles on a gallon. However, an HOV non-hybrid with 4 passengers that gets only 25 MPG would tally 100 PMPG (25 MPG x 4 passengers) for a 150% increase in fuel economy over the SOV hybrid!
If NoSUV actually cared about the fuel economy arguments NoSUV defends, NoSUV would carpool or pick up slugs. Imagine the PMPGs if your hybrid carried 4 passengers! 40 MPG x 4 passengers = 160 PMPG, or a 300% increase in fuel economy over NoSUV's SOV commute! Plus you would take three other vehicles off the road reducing traffic congestion.
Since NoSUV is locked into the "hybrids are the answer to our problems" mindset, NoSUV may want to consider these as real options that can improve things today! No way around it, these are strong arguments for HOV commuting!
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Posted By: N_or_S_bound
Date Posted: 27 Jul 2006 at 10:31am
raymond,
Just to inject on behalf of NoSuv, he has stated before on this site that there are no slugs between his home and work. So, in the interest of a fair discussion, let's keep that in mind.
There's plenty else he misses the boat on, don't need to throw something else in there.
How'd I do NoSuv?
NoSb
SOV because you can, HOV because you care!
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Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 27 Jul 2006 at 11:33am
Of course, there's also the argument reflected on Post's front page Outlook 7/23. Says words to the effect that dramatic action is needed ASAP and climate conscience. Post has said previously that the hybrid exemption experiment was too successful. Can't really be both.
Best course for the planet is to make the express lanes for SULEV and mass transit. Sure, slugs no longer get a free ride - but isn't our environment worth it?
As for the current hybrid exemption policy - how many hybrids are parked in YOUR commuter lot?
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Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 27 Jul 2006 at 11:38am
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And raymond, I agree that the best plan is for the express lanes during commuting hours to be restricted to ONLY HOV-hybrid - the only non-SULEV vehicles that should be allowed are buses. When the conventional polluting vehicles are rightfully exiled, then and only then should the hybrids be required to pick up passengers.
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Posted By: SpongeBob
Date Posted: 28 Jul 2006 at 9:30am
Because I'm feeling cranky this morning, I'll take up the cudgel for my turn to whack Everyone's Favorite Moron.
(sigh) Where to begin?
Fairness? If everyone could afford hybrids, then it would be fair for government to provide special facilities to encourage their use. But is it fair to penalize entry level workers, or administrative support staff, while extending a benefit to their bosses who can afford the additional monthly cost of a hybrid?
It is in NoSUV's world, I suppose.
Greenliness? Please. NoSUV, you can't hide behind that convenient banner -- we all know that you could give a hoot about climate change. We have repeatedly and utterly demonstrated that HOV-3 produces fewer environmental effects than a Smug. But you are only on here to throw bombs as a troll, as you've admitted.
But how can it be that there are no slugs between where you live and work? Or rather, if so, what are you doing on this board?
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Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 28 Jul 2006 at 10:53am
Sponge, my, my - you need to soak up some logic.
Entry level workers and admin staff who cannot afford a SULEV should be using public transportation, or joining a formal SULEV carpool and paying proportional expenses.
And the day they ban conventional private vehicles from the express lanes during peak commuting hours is the day that I'll drive the 20 min out of my way to pick up commuters willing to share expenses.
By the way, Sponge, indeed it is 20 min out of my way each way to hit a slug line, and my one way commute currently is 25 min. Does it really make sense to drive almost twice as long to pick up non-cost sharing riders? Using the "per person" math so commonly discussed on the board that inapporpriately DISREGARDS the non-commuting miles used by polluters, I suppose it does. But in real life, the environment fares much worse.
Sponge - where's your SULEV? Why don't you have one? You know, you don't have to use it for your commute - but the miles you put on it are better for the earth.
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Posted By: n/a
Date Posted: 31 Jul 2006 at 10:45am
NoSUV, I never said that HOV lanes should carry only hybrids or busses, but, as usual, you have twisted the discussion to suit your interests. Instead, HOV lanes should be restricted to vehicles that maximize ridership and Passenger MPGs. Hey, wait a minute, they are! And why should hybrid drivers wait for legislation to do the right thing and pick up passengers? Hmmmm, I guess its because NoSUV says so.
And FYI, those who cannot afford hybrids likely cannot afford mass transit either. Ex. my roundtrip metro commute is $11.45 per day, or about $240.00 per month, or about $2800.00 per year. Who can afford that? No thanks, I'd rather send my kids to college!
But what about those who choose not to buy hybrids? Should we be punished based on our buying decision? NoSUV, are you advocating descrimination on the basis of socio-economic status, or based on consumer habits? That is what the hybrid exemption amounts to! And that is what your argument leads to. I'm sorry, NoSUV, I will not have you look down your long, warty, crooked nose at me and say that I am a second class citizen because I cannot or do not buy a hybrid.
BTW, if you do not participate in slugging, why are you participating in a discussion on these slug-line forums? That's kind of like a skinny person attending weight watcher meetings and criticizing the other attendees.
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Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 31 Jul 2006 at 12:01pm
raymond - using your logic, there should be no expectation that those who choose the lifestyle afforded by living further out should have free rides - and not have to pay for their commuting costs. Sort of reminds me of the morons who buy cheap houses by airports and then complain about the noise. You chose to have larger property for the price, so you should acknowledge that you have to pay for your commuting costs. So - get on the bus!
IF you must have a vehicle, it should be as good as possible for the environment. Since you are selfishly looking out for only yourself and preserving a free ride, it is clear that you need some sort of incentive other than the fact (and I do mean FACT) that you are personally responsible for worsening the environment by refusing to get a SULEV. Since minimal tax funded rebates/credits aren't getting your attention, the next best thing is to legislate it for you. Hybrid Only Vehicle High Occupancy Lanes might do the trick - with an exemption for public transportation.
In short, raymond, you made several buying decisions - you could have lived within non-private vehicle range of your work - but you chose to have a different quality of living.
Oh, yeah - the lanes do NOT restrict to vehicles that maximize ridership. That would be buses. If you don't agree, then, by extension, you are in favor of 2 seat vehicles using the express lanes during commuting hours as long as both seat are full. And that's not the case, either.
And, as long as you vent against the hybrid exemption, I'll be here.
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Posted By: MDC
Date Posted: 31 Jul 2006 at 3:10pm
NoSUV,
Your argument is false. Hybrids are not the cleanest vehicles available for one. If that were the deciding factor, then you would be driving a CNG powered car.
SULEV being a determining factor? You sure about that? For example, the 2005 Pontiac Grand Prix, and Buick Lacrosse with 3800 series III V6 engines are SULEV. I'm sure there are many others in 2006-2007 models.
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Posted By: n/a
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2006 at 8:33am
Well NoSUV, if I made the wrong buying decision by not choosing a hybrid, then 99.99% of auto buyers also made the wrong decision. That clearly puts hybrid buyers in the minority (but you knew that!) And I won't criticize you for your effort to do what you thought was right for the environment (the way you criticize me). However misguided your attempt, you tried, and I appreciate that. So please do not criticize those of us who do not share your zeal with the band-aid solution you have chosen. We all won't be so easily manipulated into buying the latest trendy marketing gimick.
And if I made the wrong decision to live where I have to commute 20 miles into DC each day, then about 500,000 of my fellow Fairfax County homeowners also made the same mistake. But I thought this was a free country! I thought I was allowed to live where I chose! How could so many people make the same mistake? Wait, I know, we all made quality of life decisions. Eureka, that's it! Fairfax County is a NICE place to live! Beautiful parks, hills and trees, good schools, nice neighbors. Wow! How could anyone call that choice a mistake?!
Hmmmm, I must have moved into NoSUVainya by mistake, where everyone must look like and think like NoSUV, and where those who think differently are criticized and discriminated against. Unfortunately, NoSUVainya is not a place where people have freedom of choice. It is also not a place where the laws and elected officials protect the rights of the majority. It is where decisions are made that protect NoSUV and NoSUV's special interests, disregarding the needs of the populace. People don't make very good choices there; they are easily manipulated into following trendy fads, they pay too much for obsolete technology, they ride one person to a vehicle and clog up the traffic lanes. They only care about what suits them, they are very selfish!
Who wants to live in NoSUVainya? Not me!
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Posted By: May
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2006 at 9:43am
I have heard that hybrid cars do well with miles per gallon in the city but not the highway. Is that true? If it is, I don't see any reason they should be allowed to cruise on HOV without meeting the passenger limit.
quote:
Originally posted by raymond
[br]In another forum someone thought up an interesting comparison method: "Passenger Miles Per Gallon" which multiplies the vehicle MPG times the number of passengers (since each passenger travels the distance covered by the vehicle). For example: a SOV hybrid may achieve 40 MPG, which is also 40 "Passenger MPGs" or one passenger traveling 40 miles on a gallon. However, an HOV non-hybrid with 4 passengers that gets only 25 MPG would tally 100 PMPG (25 MPG x 4 passengers) for a 150% increase in fuel economy over the SOV hybrid!
If NoSUV actually cared about the fuel economy arguments NoSUV defends, NoSUV would carpool or pick up slugs. Imagine the PMPGs if your hybrid carried 4 passengers! 40 MPG x 4 passengers = 160 PMPG, or a 300% increase in fuel economy over NoSUV's SOV commute! Plus you would take three other vehicles off the road reducing traffic congestion.
Since NoSUV is locked into the "hybrids are the answer to our problems" mindset, NoSUV may want to consider these as real options that can improve things today! No way around it, these are strong arguments for HOV commuting!
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Posted By: 122582
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2006 at 10:10am
Let's rethink the exemption and allow only vehicles with 50 + MPG EPA estimates cruise the HOV in SOV mode.
Keep slugging alive - tip your driver today!
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Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2006 at 10:20am
May,
You heard wrong.
My hybrid gets GREAT mileage on the highway - better than city. Of course, there is a breakpoint where inefficiencies are realized. For example, when I try to keep up with the traffic in the express lanes during commuting hours and it's going 75+, I get worse mileage than when going the speed limit. I seem to recall that conventional vehicles have the same problem.
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Posted By: n/a
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2006 at 10:30am
Welcome to the discussion, May. One answer to your question lies in the technology system used.
Most hybrids use their electric motors at low speeds and at times of low power demands, like stop and go city driving, while switching to their gas engine at highway speeds. So their fuel effeciency is lower in highway use than in city driving. In this case, you have made a correct assumption and hybrids do not get better "highway" MPG than another comparable car. But because their reported MPG is averaged across varying usage patterns, including city and highway driving, hybrids can 'report' better overall MPG. The reality is that when the gas engine is running at highway speeds they are just like any other car.
So although hybrids operate just like any other gas burning car in the HOV lanes, they are exempt from common sense HOV requirements. These exemptions allow hybrid owners to sleep better at night in blissful ignorance and eco-self-justification, while we, the informed, wisely HOV commute (and hybrid marketers laugh all the way to the bank)!
Yes May, the truth is that the emperor wears no clothes, and hybrids are just another version of fossil fuel burning cars.
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Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2006 at 12:40pm
raymond - actually, your assumption on how hybrids work is wrong. During highway driving, unless you are stomping on the accelerator, it's possible and probable that the electric motor is receiving power from either/or the gas engine or the battery. If the battery is at a full charge and you are accelerating slowly, even at 70+ mph the gas engine can be idling while the battery provides the power to the motor. Also, at times, it could be a combination of both the battery and the gas engine, with both providing power to the motor.
The rest of your assumptions are similarly false - what can be called error carried forward. Those times when I've been solely on the highway for the entire tank of gas, my hybrid has exceeded mpg from either just city or a combination of city and highway use. Just like a conventional car.
raymond, what you need to do is get a hybrid so you can learn that your assumptions are wrong. That is, unless you are living in the Dark Ages and feel that knowledge is to be feared.
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Posted By: MDC
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2006 at 4:02pm
Hybrid owners shouldn't count on the computer in their car for determining their MPG at any point during their trip. It's there for entertainment purposes. I'm sure there is a disclaimer in the owner's manual.
If the manufacturer says that they get better city MPG than highway MPG, I'm prone to believe them.
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Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2006 at 4:21pm
quote:
Originally posted by MDC
[br]Hybrid owners shouldn't count on the computer in their car for determining their MPG at any point during their trip. It's there for entertainment purposes. I'm sure there is a disclaimer in the owner's manual.
If the manufacturer says that they get better city MPG than highway MPG, I'm prone to believe them.
MDC - seems logical, even if not reality. I double check the computer by doing the math long hand - not too hard since denominator is such a small number, and the numerator fairly big.
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Posted By: N_or_S_bound
Date Posted: 02 Aug 2006 at 8:20am
One EXTREMELY important calculation that isn't being factored in is waste disposal.
I just sold a 1966 model vehicle. It runs great. It's not in a junk yard somewhere. It's a "conventional" combustion engine. Doesn't have all the latest safety features, but a good car.
I have a 2000 Toyota Avalon. It is a 6 cylinder. Gets 27 mpg average based on my driving habits. It has all the latest safety features (at least enough to make it safe for quite a few number, 30?, of years to come).
Does going out and buying a new or used vehicle simply because it's called a "hybrid" make sense to junk either of those fine vehicles above especially if I were to be overcome with the temptation to drive SOV in the HOV (which the law is finally catching up to a more common sense approach)?
Selling my Avalon doesn't take it off the roads and do much/anything for emissions reduction since someone else is going to drive a comfortable and safe vehicle anyways?
The only way to get my "pollution factory" off the road is to completely scrap it. Tear up every salvagable piece on it so it can't be recycled to keep other "gas guzzlers" on the road--hey, you don't wanna contribute to furthering others' polluting habits do you?
So, if we scrap the "polluters", we're just filling up landfills with good machinery which could last for years as viable transportation.
Some zealots of hybrids would argue to fill up the landfills (what you don't say is as important as what you do say!) with our current state of the art technology in order to make room for the "latest and greatest" technology.
My Avalon is designed to last MANY more years, avoiding the landfill as long as feasible/economically practical. It's 7, maybe 8 years old (I bought it used). If it were a hybrid, it would be nearing the end of its service life and the batteries would need replacing. Which makes more practical sense in a HOLISTIC approach to being environmentally friendly.
Oh yeah, when my Avalon travels N_bound or S_bound, it has at least 3 for HOV--sometimes there's maximum seating occupied (5 of us) and comfortably seated I might add.
It's so easy to get fixated on some zealots petty rationale for hybrids and lose sight of the larger mosaic (big picture). Don't be fooled....marketers know how to manipulate your perceptions because they induce prejudices in your thinking without you even being aware of it.
NoSb
SOV because you can, HOV because you care!
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Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 02 Aug 2006 at 10:09am
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NoSB: You need to continue your train of thought on "trickle down" economics. Although your used car may not leave the roads, it's possible that the person who bought that car dumped a worse one for it. The elimination of the worse one still makes a difference.
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Posted By: MDC
Date Posted: 02 Aug 2006 at 4:16pm
NoSUV,
Unless you drive a whole tank doing only highway speed, AND another whole tank with only city driving, your calculations are meaningless in this discussion. Of course you don't need a computer to figure your average MPG on a tank of gas. That's a no-brainer! You haven't proven that you get better MPG driving in one place over driving in another. That you can divide xxx miles by xx gallons is not relevant to your claim.
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Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 03 Aug 2006 at 8:03am
MDC: Actually, you likely need a refresher course in math and logic. Let me give you a simple example that even a 3rd grader should be able to understand.
Let's say you take 2 trips with just highway driving and 2 trips with mixed city and highway. For both trips with just highway driving, you go 500 miles and use 10 gallons. 500/10 = 50mpg highway. Now, with the mixed driving, you only go 450 miles and use 10 gallons. 450/10 = 45mpg.
What you know for a fact is that the vehicle gets better mileage on the highway than city/highway.
Since the variable is the city driving portion, you can logically infer that your vehicle gets better mileage on the highway than in the city.
Thanks for reaffirming my definitions on a different post.
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Posted By: N_or_S_bound
Date Posted: 03 Aug 2006 at 9:42am
quote:
Originally posted by NoSUV
[br]What you know for a fact is that the vehicle gets better mileage on the highway than city/highway.
Since the variable is the city driving portion, you can logically infer that your vehicle gets better mileage on the highway than in the city.
If only this held true in ALL vehicles which are currently in existence you might have a leg or two to stand on.
Consider viewing www.fueleconomy.gov and you might come to another conclusion from which to try to form the basis for a factually based conversation. Logical inferences break down in this case.
Another consideration is just how "highway" driving is calculated. Does this include on/off ramp accel/decel from/to refuleing points? Or is this ONLY on the highway in order to remove the small discrepancy that may be induced in the calculations by driving from your home to the "highway" in order to start your trip?
In summary, some vehicles get better fueleconomy in city driving than highway.
NoSb
SOV because you can, HOV because you care!
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Posted By: MDC
Date Posted: 03 Aug 2006 at 10:52am
Thanks for the "lesson". You do know your elementary school math for sure!
My point was that you can't depend on what your car's computer is telling you to be accurate. I don't see how your responses are related.
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Posted By: SlugsB1tch2Much
Date Posted: 03 Aug 2006 at 12:51pm
Here is my question to all:
Hybrid or no hybrid, HOV or HOT, it seems that the main point here is the time utility that the HOV lane provides. I don't buy into environmental concern as the main reason for owning a hybrid. It would be naive to think that time did not have a money value and I respect the fact some people are willing to exploit this SOV capability (e.g. Why do people choose to fly instead of driving?).
Furthermore, we should expect a very high influx of people into our area (that is, Northern Virginia) for many economic and government reasons (e.g. BRAC, increase of jobs, etc). What are some long-term solutions to this problem? Eliminating hybrids, motorcycles, etc as SOV vehicles will make a difference but not in the long run: the hybrid will ultimately still be used in accordance with HOV rules and regulations, people tend to own conventional vehicles as opposed to hybrids, and every highway, interstate has a limiting factor on how much traffic it can handle.
It seems that a lot of you are trying to convince each other of the principle of the matter whether it is pro-environment or a matter of "buying your way out of a problem." For all you people whether pro-hybrid or anti-hybrid, you have failed to use a more relevant buzzword: sustainability.
What are some long term solutions?
My concise logic:
Limit f(n) = M
n->infinity
where, n = number of people using HOV
f(n) is the dynamic function that represents the capacity of the HOV lane (let me know if you want to help me with this)
M = a maximum
We will at some point experience a scenario in which P>M, where P = number of HOV uses.
FINAL QUESTION: What do we do??? Long-term solutions, please.
P.S.
I noticed some math being thrown around, consider this: This could be a periodic trend and we will later experience regression to the mean. If this is true, then no legislation will solve the problem. I have done some mathematical modeling and any sort of external interference with the system will affect it short-term but not in the long-run. If anybody is experienced with this, please let me know if my assumptions (I have modelled this as a steady-state, stable, dynamic system) are incorrect.
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Posted By: Bob
Date Posted: 03 Aug 2006 at 1:59pm
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If want information and help from the slug community, I suggest you drop your insulting user name and the attitude it conveys. I wouldn't go on a hybrid site and sign up with a name such as "hybrids are spoiled brats" and then ask the hybrid drivers their opinions.
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Posted By: SlugsB1tch2Much
Date Posted: 03 Aug 2006 at 3:25pm
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Please observe the inherent irony Bob, I slug and drive and therefore do not discount myself from a group that complains. Either way lets not get distracted, I believe I am asking a salient question.
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Posted By: n/a
Date Posted: 15 Aug 2006 at 2:52pm
I slug, therefore I am!
You are asking a fair question SB2M, but I think you lost several readers with your exercises in algebra and modeling. I dummied my 'Passenger' MPG vs. SOV MPG argument down for the likes of those who still cling to the 'buy-your-way-out-of-it' hybrid argument.
Best long term solution so far: fill up your seats and ride the HOV lanes! HOVs help to solve so many problems.
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Posted By: SlugsB1tch2Much
Date Posted: 16 Aug 2006 at 5:18am
Hey Ray, I noticed that I may have been too abstract. I suppose that is my mistake, but it does humor and surprise me to see that the only response is of the dumbass nature from Bob (ad hominem much?). No offense Bob, but I've slugged with you (14th and NY) before way back before I bought a hybrid and you know what, you're a lot smarter than you look. You're especially non-threatening in person, it's funny to see you behave that way on a forum.
I agree with you on that point: the best long term solution is to HOV regardless. I carry passengers from time-to-time in my hybrid, so I hope this at least offsets the effect of SOV riders. Either way, that hybrid people are wanting off the HOV lane will still be there whether it has one passenger or three (if required by law).
I think the main concern for the community as a whole is the HOT conundrum, NOT hybrids.
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Posted By: n/a
Date Posted: 17 Aug 2006 at 8:35am
If you HOV/hybrid to work SB2M, then your PMPGs (passenger MPGs) must be off the scale. Wow, imagine 40 or 50 MPG X 4 passengers! Way to go! Now that's a great example of taking local action to help solve global problems.
What if NoSUV and every other hybrid driver did this? OMG, its a revolution! Whoopieee! Who needs the exemption? Look what happens when we don't rely on the government to think for us, or to legislate a 'lowest common intelligence denominator' bandaid solution.
Agreed, no good will come to the populace from HOT.
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Posted By: Luddite
Date Posted: 17 Aug 2006 at 9:17am
Sorry Raymond, there aren't enough riders to fill all of the hybrids. HOV is not about efficient use of vehicles anymore. It's about riding solo in cars that are purchased for a premium. I would be in favor of hybrids if they were required to have at least 3 people. Now, I'm against them entirely.
Hybrids
Killed
HOV
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Posted By: SpongeBob
Date Posted: 17 Aug 2006 at 9:30am
SB2M: how can you accuse Good Ole Bob of an ad hominem attack when you respond by remarking on his appearance? Who cares what he looks like or how threatening he is? I mean, we can't all be square and yellow, like me.
But let me tell you something you high-bred owning, non-slugging whining little troll, very few people have done more in the fight to preserve the best use of the HOV lanes on 95 than Our Own Bob. He's written more letters to the editors and to VDOT, attended more public forums, and done more behind-the-scenes research than anyone I know, including even Robert Lang whose done a heckuva lot, too.
He's on your side, you know? Everyone loses when they build toll roads -- it appears you understand that. Or should.
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Posted By: SlugsB1tch2Much
Date Posted: 22 Aug 2006 at 7:35pm
Spongebob:
Read my earlier post regarding my mathematical modeling--I'm all for slugging, hell I pick slugs up, so I suppose you're right about one fact: I don't slug; I just drive...for all that's worth. If you would like to see my report, which I have also sent to in letters to appropriate channels, then please let me know, I will be more than happy to email it to you. Everybody is entitled to their right to bitch on this forum whether its drivers, slugs or myself, let's watch our liberal usage of the word "troll."
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Posted By: SpongeBob
Date Posted: 24 Aug 2006 at 11:15am
Right, you are not a troll. I was thinking of NoSUV, who is a troll, and has so claimed in several posts.
Thank you for driving. Please lay off Bob.
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Posted By: SlugsB1tch2Much
Date Posted: 24 Aug 2006 at 4:09pm
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No problems here, have a great weekend (I love Flex scheduling)!
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Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2006 at 11:15am
quote:
Originally posted by SpongeBob
[br]Right, you are not a troll. I was thinking of NoSUV, who is a troll, and has so claimed in several posts.
Thank you for driving. Please lay off Bob.
Sponge - can you tell us the reason why there's a separate category on hybrids at slug-lines.com? Is it just to hear you bitch?
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Posted By: SpongeBob
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2006 at 4:48pm
If you had ever bothered to read my postings, you'd see that I consistently maintain that the high-bred issue is a distraction from the real concern of toll roads.
The few times I have weighed in on high-breds, I've defended their right to use the HOV lanes through the original date they were promised, even though their presence can sometimes slow down traffic.
My derision of the high-bred is directed at the smugness of the high-bred owners, who falsely assert that they are driven by purer motivations than the rest of us. (I grant that some are, but most are not.)
I also have enjoyed tilting at your counter-sensical circular arguments in favor of high-breds.
To me, you are entertaining. What, am I boring you?
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Posted By: sluDgE
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2006 at 7:22pm
[:D] Applause! Applause! [:D]
Soak it up, Sponge!
[:)] Soak it up! [:)]
We all love to be entertained.
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Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 30 Aug 2006 at 9:00am
quote:
Originally posted by NoSUV
[br]quote:
Originally posted by SpongeBob
[br]Right, you are not a troll. I was thinking of NoSUV, who is a troll, and has so claimed in several posts.
Thank you for driving. Please lay off Bob.
Sponge - can you tell us the reason why there's a separate category on hybrids at slug-lines.com? Is it just to hear you bitch?
Again, Sponge, and try to read this s l o w l y: Why is there a separate category on hybrids at slug-lines.com?
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Posted By: SpongeBob
Date Posted: 30 Aug 2006 at 9:20am
(I can feel myself being drawn down into the swirling toilet-bowl illogic of NoSUV... help me, Auntie Em, help me!)
OK, I'll play along... Why did Admin pull the hybrid threads into one skein? Please tell us, Oh Great and Terrible Oz.
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Posted By: VA_Hybrid
Date Posted: 30 Aug 2006 at 9:13pm
quote:
Originally posted by NoSUV
[br]What daily HOV jams? They are as rare as a hybrid parked in the commuter lot!
I see hybrids parked on the commuter lot. They even have the SOV playes. I dont know whats going on there. Maybe just a freeloader hehe.
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