| Author |
 Topic  |
|
jimbob
Starting Member
1 Posts |
 Posted - 10/19/2006 : 14:59:10
|
This is especially for Scott. You keep harping on an $8,000 cost differential for a hybrid. If you copy and paste the following URL in your address bar, you will see that a hybrid Toyota Camry is only $4,000 more than the cost of a comparably equipped conventional Camry. Now, you get a $2,600 federal tax rebate for buying the Hybrid Camry so that leaves you with a $1400 additional cost for the hybrid.
http://autos.msn.com/research/compare/default.aspx?c=0&n=3&i=0&tb=0&ph1=t0&ph2=t0&dt=0&v=t102538&v=t102582 |
|
|
scottt
Moderator
415 Posts |
Posted - 10/20/2006 : 09:39:34
|
You haven't been reading all the threads.
I paid $15,500 for my Mazda 6i. The cheapest Toyota Prius model is $22,795.00. That's a $7,295 price difference. After taxes and such, I figured it would be about $8k difference between the two cars.
I'm not compairing hybrid vs non hybrid models (IE Toyota Highlander V6 vs. Highlander Hybrid).
Even with all the tax incentives (which for Toyota just decreased) it still takes years to make up for the difference in Hybrid prices.
http://www.edmunds.com/advice/fueleconomy/articles/116513/article.html |
 |
|
|
dickboyd
Advanced Member
472 Posts |
|
|
n/a
deleted
632 Posts |
Posted - 10/20/2006 : 13:33:28
|
Not to mention the other costs. Such as:
Opportunity cost: hybrid manufacturers mis-lead consumers to believe that they have taken positive steps in addressing our nations fossil fuel/ecological/economical problems, which leads to complacency and inactivity on the part of consumers in finding real solutions. Bottom line: hybrids still burn fossil fuel, and they use other toxic elements in their batteries for short term energy storage. While hybrid buyers are lead to believe that they are acting green, in fact best case, they are doing nothing positive, worst case, they are adding to a toxic eco-soup and delaying action toward real solutions.
Economic cost: eco-minded consumers are mis-lead into thinking that the hybrid premium is an investment into eco-solutions, when instead it goes straight into the pockets of hybrid manufacturer shareholders. And what about long-term maintanence costs to the consumer? Sure, the manufacturers paint a rosey picture now, while they are fighting for product adoption and grabbing market share, but what about in a few years when they start shorting out?
Ecological costs: while we know the eco-costs associated with present day fossil fuel technologies, hybrids present a future with a host of ecological unknowns, such as, what about the batteries and all the toxins contained within, not to mention the sheer mass of the battery in each car - several hundred pounds each. Sure the manufacturer's websites claim a high % of the elements are recyclable, but they want to sell cars, and Toyota will likely farm out the reclaimation to a third party. So who will be responsible in a few years when they start dying? Big ???s.
Hybrids are just another product to sell, not a solution. Hybrids are a band aid at best, and at worst, they are a distraction from the problems, a contribution to problems, and a demotivator to action towards solutions. |
|
|
|
Hybrid lover
Starting Member
1 Posts |
Posted - 10/20/2006 : 16:56:48
|
No excuses and no apologies. I have carpooled, picked up slugs, and "cheated" on the HOV. My car wore out and I bought a Honda Civic Hybrid to buy my way onto the HOV. No concern for the enviroment just because it would legally allow me to go without carpooling or slugging. I paid $2000 more than for a regular Civic, get 43 MPG average, and cut an hour off my commute each way. I have gotten almost 4 years of HOV travel legally, 3 years of tax cuts and a huge savings in gas costs. Even it Hybrids are stopped now, I have made my money. But I have learned I like my Hybrid for its cost savings, low maintenance, and I like a car I would never before have considered. The incentives to get me to try a Hybrid worked as the government and car manufacturers wished. I will buy another or improved version when the time comes, HOV or not. If HOV for Hybrids is stopped, I will vary my time to get on just as HOV time stops at night and get off just before it goes in affect in the morning. Pick up slugs? No, was a very nasty experience and extra time. Hot lane. I would do it. Cheat again, possibly. Never got caught, low fines if caught and no more illegal than speeding on the HOV like most carpools and slug pools. Those who don't like to hear this will call me a troll as they do to most comments they don't like. But facts are Hybrid SOV is currently legal, less of a problem than cheaters, a cheap way to drive, and an incentive for car manufacturers to make more Hybrids or better Hybrids. So now start throwing your eggs.
SOV because I legally can- Slug because you choose to. |
|
|
|
Luddite
Senior Member Member
111 Posts |
Posted - 10/23/2006 : 12:12:57
|
Hybrid Lover,
Thanks for your post, but you haven't shared anything we all haven't known for a long time. Your words don't change the fact that the hybrid exemption killed hov. Respectfully submitted. |
|
|
|
MDC
Moderator
638 Posts |
Posted - 10/23/2006 : 15:45:52
|
Hybrid lover,
Are you actually buying a new hybrid each year? Otherwise, it wouldn't be legal to claim a tax benefit for three straight years, as you claim... |
|
|
|
NoSUV
Advanced Member
1076 Posts |
Posted - 10/23/2006 : 15:56:36
|
quote:
[i]Originally posted by raymond[/i]
[br]Not to mention the other costs. Such as:
Opportunity cost: hybrid manufacturers mis-lead consumers to believe that they have taken positive steps in addressing our nations fossil fuel/ecological/economical problems, which leads to complacency and inactivity on the part of consumers in finding real solutions. Bottom line: hybrids still burn fossil fuel, and they use other toxic elements in their batteries for short term energy storage. While hybrid buyers are lead to believe that they are acting green, in fact best case, they are doing nothing positive, worst case, they are adding to a toxic eco-soup and delaying action toward real solutions.
Economic cost: eco-minded consumers are mis-lead into thinking that the hybrid premium is an investment into eco-solutions, when instead it goes straight into the pockets of hybrid manufacturer shareholders. And what about long-term maintanence costs to the consumer? Sure, the manufacturers paint a rosey picture now, while they are fighting for product adoption and grabbing market share, but what about in a few years when they start shorting out?
Ecological costs: while we know the eco-costs associated with present day fossil fuel technologies, hybrids present a future with a host of ecological unknowns, such as, what about the batteries and all the toxins contained within, not to mention the sheer mass of the battery in each car - several hundred pounds each. Sure the manufacturer's websites claim a high % of the elements are recyclable, but they want to sell cars, and Toyota will likely farm out the reclaimation to a third party. So who will be responsible in a few years when they start dying? Big ???s.
Hybrids are just another product to sell, not a solution. Hybrids are a band aid at best, and at worst, they are a distraction from the problems, a contribution to problems, and a demotivator to action towards solutions.
raymond - just how many times do we have to tell you that the battery issue which you quote is NOT an issue? I know you tend to get stuck on falsehoods, but try to let go of this one so you don't seem so moronic. |
|
|
|
MDC
Moderator
638 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2006 : 16:14:32
|
That's right raymond, the used batteries vanish into thin air when they end their service life!
Don't you know that by now? |
|
|
|
NoSUV
Advanced Member
1076 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2006 : 16:46:03
|
quote:
[i]Originally posted by MDC[/i]
[br]That's right raymond, the used batteries vanish into thin air when they end their service life!
Don't you know that by now?
Wow, MDC - I thought you actually read and understood all of the previous facts brought up on this board concerning batteries - not just from Toyota, but from the battery industy as well.
I believe that you are better than that MDC. |
|
|
|
MDC
Moderator
638 Posts |
Posted - 10/25/2006 : 08:43:19
|
So you're willing to guarantee that every hybrid's battery will not end up where it's not supposed to?
There are recycling programs for aluminum, steel, plastic, paper, and batteries now. What percentage of each makes it to the recycling bin?
Sure there's a $200 bounty on hybrid batteries from hybrid car makers, and they seem to have a reasonable recycling program, but that's no guarantee that everyone will follow the plan.
This is a pointless discussion since you won't concede anything, but I'm sure you're willing to continue... |
Edited by - MDC on 10/25/2006 08:44:20 |
|
|
|
NoSUV
Advanced Member
1076 Posts |
Posted - 10/26/2006 : 17:46:33
|
| MDC - how about you guarantee that drivers will always stop at red lights? It's just as silly. |
|
|
|
MDC
Moderator
638 Posts |
Posted - 10/27/2006 : 15:18:49
|
| You're the one that said there is no battery issue. I'm making no such representations. |
|
|
|
n/a
deleted
632 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2006 : 15:49:48
|
MDC, thanks for taking up the torch, but you can't argue with a sick mind. And NoSUV is definitely sick. Many, many well-founded, intelligent and logical arguments in this forum have been made in opposition to NoSUV's crazy rants, without concession. But there is a cause to this rebellion.
You see, NoSUV (and many other, much smarter people) has invested their hard earned money and committed a lifestyle to this "new" hybrid technology. NoSUV fell for the marketing hype and now must defend that emotional/psudo-ecological purchase decision against reason and logic. NoSUV does not want to hear reason, nor fact, nor dissenting opinion that injects doubt into the wall of denial NoSUV has built up. And can you blame him?
NoSUV does not want to hear that hybrid manufacturers have mis-lead consumers to believe that hybrids are positive steps in addressing our nations fossil fuel/ecological/economical problems. NoSUV will not admit to the very complacency and egocentricity NoSUV has exhibited in this forum that prevents hybrids buyers from participating in finding real solutions. In fact: HYBRIDS BURN FOSSIL FUEL, and they use other toxic elements in their batteries. While NoSUV and all the other hybrid buyers are lead to believe that they are acting green, in fact, in the best case is they are doing nothing positive. The worst case is they are adding to a toxic eco-time bomb and delaying action toward real solutions while they fill the auto-manufacturer's coffers.
But NoSUV does not want to hear that hybrid drivers are mis-lead into thinking that the hybrid premium is an investment into eco-solutions, when instead it goes straight into the pockets of hybrid manufacturer shareholders and diverts money from REAL solutions. NOSUV will not admit to paying so much on a falicy.
NoSUV touts battery recliamation programs advertised on the Toyota website as fact, but instead denies the REAL fact that hybrids present a future with ecological unknowns, such as, who will actually be responsible for battery reclaimation? The sheer mass of the battery in each car - several hundred pounds each - presents unique problems that we have never had before. Sure the manufacturer's websites claim a high % of the elements are recyclable, but they want to sell cars, and Toyota will likely farm out the reclaimation to a third party. So who will be responsible in a few years when they start dying? Not NoSUV, but instead, it will be our children and grandchildren.
I don't blame you NoSUV. How can you back down now? You have committed too much into hybrids. The own you now! But we won't be fooled. We have looked at the man behind the curtain! We know its all the same old car, repackaged to look like a solution.
I'm doing what I can now by carpooling and reducing unecessary driving. I'm holding out for a REAL solution! Fossil fuel is not it. And, by the way NoSUV you don't know what it is either.
|
|
|
|
Hooch
Junior Member
27 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2006 : 17:24:21
|
NoSUV bought his hybrid to get in to HOV, plain and simple. I'll bet $5 his "other car" is an 8 cyclinder gas guzzler that he uses for his "non-commmuting". He likely throws all of his paper, aluminum and plastic in the trash can too. Probably doesn't doesn't check for CFC's in his cleaning supplies either. He's just on a soap box using the "tree hugger" excuse to defend the fact that he pissed away 10K on an ugly car that does very little, if anything, to help the environment since it contributes to the idling of "fossil" cars that can't maintain speed on the HOV due to the increase in SOV hybrids clogging the lanes. His rhetoric makes me gag, to the point of finally posting about him after reading his garbage for over a year....
Hooch |
|
|
|
NoSUV
Advanced Member
1076 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2006 : 13:07:38
|
raymond - Have you checked out the Clinton Climate Initiative? Wouldn't surprise me in the least to find out that either you haven't, or if you have, you just stick your fingers in your ears and sing la, la, la so you don't have to listen to facts.
As I recall, it was the articles YOU found and posted links to that refuted your battery claim. Just how ignorant can you really be? |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Hybrid Cost Differential
Forum Locked
