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SpongeBob
Advanced Member
USA
679 Posts |
 Posted - 12/06/2006 : 10:06:15
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I really am trying to follow your argument. I must be stupid, though, because I simply cannot understand what you mean in your first paragraph above. It appears to boil down to: "Too bad for you if you cannot afford a new car -- get on the bus, Gus."
Comparing DC traffic with other metro areas is invalid. Every city has its own set of issues. The commuting patterns in DC are unique to our city, and cannot be compared to, say, Denver, or Chicago. To pick only one thing, there are far fewer river crossings than for comparably sized cities. Also, we have essentially three contentious "state" governments involved in traffic and transit planning.
But you have said in other posts that slugging is somehow the cause of DC traffic congestion.
Anyway, back to hybrids. If you make the HOV an "SOV Hybrid Only Lane", yes, people will buy many hybrids. In fact, so many will be bought that in a short time, the express lanes will be completely jammed and the benefit of having a hybrid and using the lanes will disappear. So you have a self-destructive system there. Also, the lanes will be moving fewer people.
The goal is to move more people in fewer vehicles -- a guaranteed pollution reducer, not create incentives for solo driving.
But what really bugs me about your thinking is how elitist it is. You blithely dismiss the troubles of anyone who cannot afford a new hybrid car, and Scroogily consign them to the bus, conveniently out of your way.
Finally, your hypocritical claims to being concerned about the environment don't fool anyone here. You would not have bought your hybrid if it was not for the HOV exemption, and your attention to retaining your special privilege is 100% proof of where your interests lie.
(BTW, here is world population in billions.
1900 1650
1920 1860
1940 2300
1960 3020
1980 4430
2000 6070
Climate change, like ALL global environmental issues, is directly related to population.) |
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NoSUV
Advanced Member
1076 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2006 : 10:26:13
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by SpongeBob[/i]
[br]I... If you make the HOV an "SOV Hybrid Only Lane", yes, people will buy many hybrids. In fact, so many will be bought that in a short time, the express lanes will be completely jammed and the benefit of having a hybrid and using the lanes will disappear. So you have a self-destructive system there. Also, the lanes will be moving fewer people.
The goal is to move more people in fewer vehicles -- a guaranteed pollution reducer, not create incentives for solo driving.
Sponge - breaking this down into bite (byte?) sized chunks.
Once express lanes become clogged, change is possible and probable to go to hybrid HOV only.
The goal. Hmm, depends on your goal. If the goal is to cause destruction of the planet, keep providing incentives to buy more polluting and less efficient vehicles. Check. Current legislation does that. If your goal is to guide people into mass transit (HOV-40) then the current legislation is exactly wrong. If the goal is to have 100% of driving, not just commuting, to be lower pollution and better fuel economy, then teh current legislation also fails.
How many hybrids did you see parked in the commuter lot today? Maybe the goal should be to have so many vehicles that are hybrids so that the answer would be 100%. Without taxpayers having to foot the bill. |
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NoSUV
Advanced Member
1076 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2006 : 10:31:36
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by SpongeBob[/i]
[br]Finally, your hypocritical claims to being concerned about the environment don't fool anyone here. You would not have bought your hybrid if it was not for the HOV exemption, and your attention to retaining your special privilege is 100% proof of where your interests lie.
Sponge - Second bite (byte). I purchased my hybrid 8 months before moving to the region, well before I had an employment offer.
The area in which I lived did not have express lanes - but there were toll roads (I-90 was nearby). On a different topic (toll roads) I don't understand the legal arguments from those who are upset about taxpayer funded roads becoming toll roads since probably all of the interstate toll roads were bought that way. |
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NoSUV
Advanced Member
1076 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2006 : 10:38:05
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by SpongeBob[/i]
[br]
(BTW, here is world population in billions.
1900 1650
1920 1860
1940 2300
1960 3020
1980 4430
2000 6070
Climate change, like ALL global environmental issues, is directly related to population.)
Sponge - 3rd bite. The data is meaningless without comparing population to climate change. If you could show a correlation between population in 1000 AD to global climate and track it for every 100 years to show correlation, then you could have an argument. However, the data you have chosen also corresponds to automobile production; you could just as easily show a relationship between automobile production and climate change -- which, although production has a relationship to population, it also has a link to industrialization. After all, if autos from the beginning ran on electric power, perhaps we would see a different statistic related to climate change. |
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NoSUV
Advanced Member
1076 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2006 : 10:55:41
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by SpongeBob[/i]
[br]
Comparing DC traffic with other metro areas is invalid. Every city has its own set of issues. The commuting patterns in DC are unique to our city, and cannot be compared to, say, Denver, or Chicago. To pick only one thing, there are far fewer river crossings than for comparably sized cities. Also, we have essentially three contentious "state" governments involved in traffic and transit planning.
Sponge - 4th bite.
Sounds like you are saying "I'm unique, just like everyone else." Where would you like to draw your comparison? Chicago? 2000 population 2,896K compared to DC of 572K. Has a big lake restricting commuting from east. I55 from the west, I90/94 from the south, and I90 and I94 from the North. Has an interior beltway. Nowhere near the congestion.
DC has metro; Chicago has El. DC has carpool lanes and slug system; Chicago doesn't. DC has worse congestion. Hmmm. |
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darkprime
Senior Member Member
195 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2006 : 11:24:28
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I hate to say it, but NoSUV does have a valid point on his "3rd Bite".
What is the reason to force everyone to buy a hybrid over a non-hybrid that gets better gas mileage (for example, a non-hybrid civic over a ford-escape hybrid)? |
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N_or_S_bound
Advanced Member
649 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2006 : 12:15:01
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by NoSUV[/i]
[br]With the biggest threat to our way of life being global warming,
HARDLY! Rather myopic view of our way of life, America and the grander mosaic of life in the USA.
NoSb
SOV because you can, HOV because you care! |
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MDC
Moderator
638 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2006 : 14:23:11
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darkprime,
Hybrids have significantly more horsepower than their non-hybrid counterparts. Look at the Lexus hybrids for example.
NoSUV is a tool. Hybrids aren't the answer to whatever problem there is and NoSUV knows it. |
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darkprime
Senior Member Member
195 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2006 : 14:36:27
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| I know in my example there was a wide HP gap. But then again, typically those vehicles with more HP get worse gas mileage. In the case of those lexus hybrids, don't they only get marginally better gas mileage than their non-hybrid counterpart? If NoSUV was truely concerned about going a hybrid route so the vehicles emmit less pollution than other vehicles, he should stipulate ONLY certain hybrids that are acceptable to buy. Maybe he has that in mind, but he always says "buy a hybrid" and never which hybrid(s). |
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MDC
Moderator
638 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2006 : 15:47:09
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The Lexus hybrids have significantly more HP than their non-hybrid versions. The V6 hybrid GS450h generages 339 HP and significantly outperforms the V8 powered GS430. The RX400h is heaps faster than the non-hybrid RX330, which has the same V6 engine.
It's great technology and all, but it's not the "environmental solution" that NoSUV is "promoting". Even if everyone switched to hybrids, they'd still be burning gasoline...
For more "wow", check out the 5.0L V8 hybrid sedan Lexus has shown. The LS 600h L.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexus_LS |
Edited by - MDC on 12/06/2006 15:52:40 |
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Luddite
Senior Member Member
111 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2006 : 21:02:27
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| Chicago has an interior beltway? Huh? What do the locals call it? DC has worse congestion? No true. Not only does Chicago have worse congestion, they have more congestion with three times the road miles. I was a salesman in Chicago for 21 years until recently and logged many hundreds of thousands of miles. I know. |
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darkprime
Senior Member Member
195 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2006 : 08:33:06
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National rankings of traffic congestion usually puts LA at #1, San Fran at #2, and DC at #3.
MDC, about your examples with the Lexus, you appear to be right, but care share the cost of a Hybrid Lexus over say 2007 Camry?
UPDATE: Starting price on a Lexus Hybrid is $54,000 |
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NoSUV
Advanced Member
1076 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2006 : 09:30:07
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by Luddite[/i]
[br]Chicago has an interior beltway? Huh? What do the locals call it? DC has worse congestion? No true. Not only does Chicago have worse congestion, they have more congestion with three times the road miles. I was a salesman in Chicago for 21 years until recently and logged many hundreds of thousands of miles. I know.
Luddite - the Loop |
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sluDgE
Moderator
1563 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2006 : 12:26:01
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Here's how wikipedia defines "The Loop" in Chicago:
BEGIN QUOTE: The Loop is what locals call the historical center of downtown Chicago. It is the second largest downtown business district in the United States, after Midtown Manhattan. Bounded on the west and north by the Chicago River, on the east by Lake Michigan, and on the south by Roosevelt Road, the lack of space shaped an architectural style dominated by high-rises. Notable buildings include the Home Insurance Building, considered the first skyscraper, and the Sears Tower, the tallest in the United States. Some of the historic buildings in this district were instrumental in the development of high-rises. Chicago's rational street numbering system originates in the Loop at the intersection of State Street and Madison Street, reflecting the central role the district has played in the entire Chicagoland region.
The term "The Loop" has different meanings to different persons. The Loop is an official community area of Chicago. The official boundaries as designated by the City of Chicago are The Chicago River to the north and west, Roosevelt Road to the south, and Lake Michigan to the east. As the downtown area and its many high-rises expanded out past the official community area over the years, "The Loop" has been used more generally to denote the entire downtown as opposed to just the officially designated community area.
The term even more specifically applies to the section of the community area surrounded by the circuit formed by Chicago's 'L' trains. The circuit runs along Lake Street on the north, Wabash Avenue on the east, Van Buren Street on the south, and Wells Street on the west. The name, however, predates the elevated loop, coming from a streetcar loop in 1882. Currently, most residents probably consider it to be the area bounded by the Chicago River on the north and west sides, Congress Parkway to the South, and Columbus Drive to the east.
This area has a wealth of shopping opportunities, although it competes with the more upscale Magnificent Mile area to the north, and with suburban shopping malls. It includes Chicago's famous Marshall Field's department store, now Macy's, a traditional favorite for viewing Christmas window displays, and the original Carson Pirie Scott store, closing soon. :END QUOTE
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Luddite
Senior Member Member
111 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2006 : 13:24:46
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| What we call the Loop = train tracks. No cars ever use it, but the Aldermen are thinking about allowing sov hybrids on it. Da Bearse. |
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