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NoSUV
Advanced Member
1076 Posts |
 Posted - 02/12/2008 : 14:13:10
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by raymond[/i]
[br]quote:
[i]Originally posted by NoSUV[/i]
[br]quote:
[i]Originally posted by TWO[/i]
[br]Funny how the law was originally written "alternative fuel" vehicles can use HOV, which specifically excluded gasoline. Where does diesel fit into that? That's much more efficient than gas.
Hybrids=HOT
TWO,
I think Bob is going to stop deleting my posts, so I'll try this again. The law to allow hybrids was NOT based on fuel economy, but emissions, which is why diesel doesn't fit. If you read the literature, hybrids similar to the Prius pollute only 20% (a factor of 5x) of similarly sized vehicles, are 15x less polluting than conventional SUVs, and 45x less polluting than Hummers.
At best, you need to be HOV-5 to keep up.
Why stop there? Think how green you'll be when you fill up all those empty seats in your hybrid! You'll increase your PMPG effeciency 400%, and you'll take three other cars off the road! You'll reduce traffic congestion, reduce pollution and help your fellow commuters. You could be a REAL hero! But...
No! NoSUV will not carpool, pick up slugs, or do anything but remain ego-centric and vain. NoSUV will ride alone with the windows up (heaven forbid NoSUV should breath any air that is not micro-filtered), NoSUV will point and scowl at carpoolers with cars full of happy commuters, NoSUV will remain indignant and self-important, and NoSUV will criticize. NoSUV is a hypocrit!
raymond,
Tell us all again why it is that YOU don't have a hybrid! Is it because you NEVER intend to pay your own way to commute? Are you willing to say that you do not drive AT ALL? Of course, any miles you put on a non-hybrid makes it worse for every inhabitant in the world. Tell us WHY you don't care!!!
To be fair, the HOV lanes need to be HOV-5 to keep up with the hybrids. After all, extinction of life seems to be a bit more important than your free ride. |
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n/a
deleted
632 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2008 : 14:39:47
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by NoSUV[/i]
[br]quote:
[i]Originally posted by raymond[/i]
[br]quote:
[i]Originally posted by NoSUV[/i]
[br]quote:
[i]Originally posted by TWO[/i]
[br]Funny how the law was originally written "alternative fuel" vehicles can use HOV, which specifically excluded gasoline. Where does diesel fit into that? That's much more efficient than gas.
Hybrids=HOT
TWO,
I think Bob is going to stop deleting my posts, so I'll try this again. The law to allow hybrids was NOT based on fuel economy, but emissions, which is why diesel doesn't fit. If you read the literature, hybrids similar to the Prius pollute only 20% (a factor of 5x) of similarly sized vehicles, are 15x less polluting than conventional SUVs, and 45x less polluting than Hummers.
At best, you need to be HOV-5 to keep up.
Why stop there? Think how green you'll be when you fill up all those empty seats in your hybrid! You'll increase your PMPG effeciency 400%, and you'll take three other cars off the road! You'll reduce traffic congestion, reduce pollution and help your fellow commuters. You could be a REAL hero! But...
No! NoSUV will not carpool, pick up slugs, or do anything but remain ego-centric and vain. NoSUV will ride alone with the windows up (heaven forbid NoSUV should breath any air that is not micro-filtered), NoSUV will point and scowl at carpoolers with cars full of happy commuters, NoSUV will remain indignant and self-important, and NoSUV will criticize. NoSUV is a hypocrit!
raymond,
Tell us all again why it is that YOU don't have a hybrid! Is it because you NEVER intend to pay your own way to commute? Are you willing to say that you do not drive AT ALL? Of course, any miles you put on a non-hybrid makes it worse for every inhabitant in the world. Tell us WHY you don't care!!!
To be fair, the HOV lanes need to be HOV-5 to keep up with the hybrids. After all, extinction of life seems to be a bit more important than your free ride.
Free ride? I drive about half the time, and I pick up 2 or 3 slugs improving my Passenger MPGs, taking 2 - 3 cars off the road, reducing traffic. How about you?
With 4 people in my car I get 80 Passenger MPGs (4 passengers x 20 MPGs) reducing fuel consumption vs. your SOV hybrid at 30 - 40 PMPGs.
I make friends with everyone I share rides with. How about you?
I make a dedicated effort to do something positive for myself and others. You bought a hybrid. Nice try!
BTW, check your gas gauge sometime; it will remind you that your hybrid runs on gas too! |
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NoSUV
Advanced Member
1076 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2008 : 15:37:35
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raymond,
quit using gasoline person miles per gallon and use emission person miles per gallon. It's not about the gas you use, it's about the harm to the environment.
The only way you can get the same as a SOV hybrid is to have 4 people in your small vehicle ALL of the time! Do you? If you have a SUV, you need 15 people ALL of the time. Do you?
You are NOT making a dedicated effort unless you are reducing emissions to the point of a hybrid. Try taking the bus or buy a hybrid - then, and only then, will you be making a dedicated effort to slow the extinction of life on earth.
You know, we went over this before - my vehicle doesn't need to have a state mandated emissions check. DOES YOURS? |
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TWO
New Member
20 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2008 : 15:51:25
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by NoSUV[/i]
TWO,
I think Bob is going to stop deleting my posts, so I'll try this again. The law to allow hybrids was NOT based on fuel economy, but emissions, which is why diesel doesn't fit. If you read the literature, hybrids similar to the Prius pollute only 20% (a factor of 5x) of similarly sized vehicles, are 15x less polluting than conventional SUVs, and 45x less polluting than Hummers.
At best, you need to be HOV-5 to keep up.
I don't follow your math, but one of the laws written years ago about the HOV lanes, was allowing cars that did not use gasoline as a fuel. Natural gas, propane, full electric (and ultimately hydrogen?) fall in that category. The way I interperted it was, the lawmakers allowed the hybrids into the HOV lanes probably to help promote alternatively powered cars (and us Americans hate diesel). Then of course lobbyists come into play, and now the lanes are flooded with SOV hybrids.
Like I said in my previous post, I think hybrids are a first step and a great idea, but the HOV lanes have definitely become slower over the last few years. I notice a lot of SOV hybrids around me just about everytime I'm in the HOV lanes. Why can't they pickup riders too? (in their defense, I've noticed about three per week, HOV-3 hybrids - WAY TO GO PEOPLE! |
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NoSUV
Advanced Member
1076 Posts |
Posted - 02/13/2008 : 10:48:34
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TWO:
Some probable misconceptions. Hybrids were allowed because of partial battery usage for prime mover. Conventional vehicles, including diesel, don't do that. The goal was NOT for gas reduction, although that was a bi-product, but emissions reduction. This was for all non-motorcycle exemptions to the carpool requirement to use the express lanes during peak commuting hours. (HOV is a misnomer, and the use of that term has given rise to HOT - a toll for 7/24. Currently, HOV is only for a minority period of the day. Because people use HOV lanes, it made it simple for the legislature to replace HOV with HOT.)
The claim that the lanes are "flooded" with hybrids is also a misconception based mostly on your frame of reference. You don't like hybrids in the express lanes, so you see hybrids when you can't go 80 mph. Let's pretend that hybrids were 20% of the traffic. Wouldn't it stand to reason that 20% of the accidents in the express lanes were also hybrid vehicles? Yet that's clearly not the case. Think of all of the express lane accidents and estimate the ratio of conventional vehicles to hybrids. |
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n/a
deleted
632 Posts |
Posted - 02/13/2008 : 10:49:40
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by TWO[/i]
[br]quote:
[i]Originally posted by NoSUV[/i]
TWO,
I think Bob is going to stop deleting my posts, so I'll try this again. The law to allow hybrids was NOT based on fuel economy, but emissions, which is why diesel doesn't fit. If you read the literature, hybrids similar to the Prius pollute only 20% (a factor of 5x) of similarly sized vehicles, are 15x less polluting than conventional SUVs, and 45x less polluting than Hummers.
At best, you need to be HOV-5 to keep up.
I don't follow your math, but one of the laws written years ago about the HOV lanes, was allowing cars that did not use gasoline as a fuel. Natural gas, propane, full electric (and ultimately hydrogen?) fall in that category. The way I interperted it was, the lawmakers allowed the hybrids into the HOV lanes probably to help promote alternatively powered cars (and us Americans hate diesel). Then of course lobbyists come into play, and now the lanes are flooded with SOV hybrids.
Like I said in my previous post, I think hybrids are a first step and a great idea, but the HOV lanes have definitely become slower over the last few years. I notice a lot of SOV hybrids around me just about everytime I'm in the HOV lanes. Why can't they pickup riders too? (in their defense, I've noticed about three per week, HOV-3 hybrids - WAY TO GO PEOPLE!
Agreed! And as I have said many, many times, I have nothing against hybrids nor hybrid drivers. Not the answer, but a good first step. I am protesting single occupant commuting, in ANY car!
SOV hybrids are a contradiction, and SOV hybrid drivers who think they are helping anything are lying to themselves and to everyone else. SOV hybrid drivers who criticize carpoolers are hypocrits! The argument dosen't work until they fill up all those empty hybrid seats. |
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TWO
New Member
20 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2008 : 14:15:00
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by NoSUV[/i]
[br]TWO:
Some probable misconceptions. Hybrids were allowed because of partial battery usage for prime mover. Conventional vehicles, including diesel, don't do that. The goal was NOT for gas reduction, although that was a bi-product, but emissions reduction. This was for all non-motorcycle exemptions to the carpool requirement to use the express lanes during peak commuting hours. (HOV is a misnomer, and the use of that term has given rise to HOT - a toll for 7/24. Currently, HOV is only for a minority period of the day. Because people use HOV lanes, it made it simple for the legislature to replace HOV with HOT.)
The claim that the lanes are "flooded" with hybrids is also a misconception based mostly on your frame of reference. You don't like hybrids in the express lanes, so you see hybrids when you can't go 80 mph. Let's pretend that hybrids were 20% of the traffic. Wouldn't it stand to reason that 20% of the accidents in the express lanes were also hybrid vehicles? Yet that's clearly not the case. Think of all of the express lane accidents and estimate the ratio of conventional vehicles to hybrids.
NoSUV, I understand that when I'm travelling in the HOV lanes, the vehicles around me are only a 'snapshot' of the ratio of hybrids vs. HOV vs. law enforcement vs. motorcycles. Most of the time I'm in view of equal amounts of SOV hybrids and HOV cars.
I'm not sure of the original intent of the 'express' lanes that started on I-395. I heard that they were once for 'fuel conservation', then emissions reduction, and traffic reduction (not sure of the order). My feeling is that the government was trying to find incentives to get alternatively fueled cars on the road, and that was an easy one. I think the focus has changed over time, and now lawmakers see it as a way to get cheap road improvements; by creating the HOT lanes.
Years ago when I was able to find the law, it specifically said non-gasoline fueled vehicles were allowed in addition to HOV cars. At that time it also said law enforcement was allowed to use the lanes only when responding to emergencies. Obviously that one changed.
Whatever the reason was, if you're so concerned about hybrids getting better mile per emissions than any other HOV loaded car (you bring that up frequently), then why don't you pickup some riders and make it that much better? That's the part I don't understand - the hybrid cars can just as easily pickup riders, so why don't they? Because it would slow down your commute? That's what I thought. You're using the hybrid to cut down your commute time by not having to pickup riders. 
Kudos to the hybrid drivers that pickup at least one other rider!
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Edited by - TWO on 02/14/2008 14:22:28 |
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NoSUV
Advanced Member
1076 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2008 : 14:27:01
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by TWO[/i]
[br]quote:
[i]Originally posted by NoSUV[/i]
[br]TWO:
Some probable misconceptions. Hybrids were allowed because of partial battery usage for prime mover. Conventional vehicles, including diesel, don't do that. The goal was NOT for gas reduction, although that was a bi-product, but emissions reduction. This was for all non-motorcycle exemptions to the carpool requirement to use the express lanes during peak commuting hours. (HOV is a misnomer, and the use of that term has given rise to HOT - a toll for 7/24. Currently, HOV is only for a minority period of the day. Because people use HOV lanes, it made it simple for the legislature to replace HOV with HOT.)
The claim that the lanes are "flooded" with hybrids is also a misconception based mostly on your frame of reference. You don't like hybrids in the express lanes, so you see hybrids when you can't go 80 mph. Let's pretend that hybrids were 20% of the traffic. Wouldn't it stand to reason that 20% of the accidents in the express lanes were also hybrid vehicles? Yet that's clearly not the case. Think of all of the express lane accidents and estimate the ratio of conventional vehicles to hybrids.
NoSUV, I understand that when I'm travelling in the HOV lanes, the cars around me are only a 'snapshot' of the ratio of hybrids vs. HOV vs. law enforcement vs. motorcycles. Most of the time I'm in view of equal amounts of SOV hybrids and HOV cars.
I'm not sure of the original intent of the 'express' lanes that started on I-395. I heard that they were once for 'fuel conservation', then emissions reduction, and traffic reduction (not sure of the order). Years ago when I was able to find the law, it specifically said non-gasoline fueled vehicles were allowed in addition to HOV cars. Whatever the reason was, if you're so concerned about hybrids getting better mile per emissions than any other HOV loaded car, then why don't you pickup some riders and make it that much better? That's the part I don't understand - the hybrid cars can just as easily pickup riders, so why don't they? Because it would slow down your commute? That's what I thought. You're using the hybrid to cut down your commute time by not having to pickup riders.
The only way we are going to slow global warming is by far more people using hybrids than conventional vehicles, as well as through the use of mass transit. For right now, the best way to ensure that happens is through per person emissions tax during commutes (emissions toll vice HOT). This works because:
- non-taxpayer incentives to go green
- sends people to hybrids or mass transit
Best way to move in that direction is for people to visibly see the advantage of hybrids through SOV use. That could change when the majority of ALL vehicles are hybrids, but until then, we should toll carpools and let hybrids be exempt.
If >50% of commuters were in a hybrid, you bet I'd carpool! We're not even close... |
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amazedbythis
Starting Member
1 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2008 : 14:32:23
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| As I'm reading through this, I wonder how many of you HOV people would actually pick up slugs if you were able to use the HOV lanes with just one occupant?? I've read all this ranting and raving about hybrids and how selfish they are, but aren't most HOVers only picking up slugs to use the express lanes??? |
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sluDgE
Moderator
1563 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2008 : 16:07:04
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Absolutely!
Car pooling/slugging saves us time and money! 
It sure beats driving alone in the slow lanes any day! |
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TWO
New Member
20 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2008 : 16:48:34
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by amazedbythis[/i]
[br]As I'm reading through this, I wonder how many of you HOV people would actually pick up slugs if you were able to use the HOV lanes with just one occupant?? I've read all this ranting and raving about hybrids and how selfish they are, but aren't most HOVers only picking up slugs to use the express lanes???
I'm sure most of us are able to use the HOV lanes by ourselves (buy a hybrid), but we choose not to go out and buy a hybrid with the intention of doing that! Maybe all the people buying hybrids to get in the HOV lanes tipped off the lawmakers that HOT lanes would be a success! "Sure, people are willing to buy their way into the HOV with hybrids, so lets make it easier to buy their way in!"
I'm amazed by the increased congestion, which can partly be attributed to hybrids. |
Edited by - TWO on 02/19/2008 07:44:36 |
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jadams08
Average Member
93 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2008 : 12:34:37
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by amazedbythis[/i]
[br]As I'm reading through this, I wonder how many of you HOV people would actually pick up slugs if you were able to use the HOV lanes with just one occupant?? I've read all this ranting and raving about hybrids and how selfish they are, but aren't most HOVers only picking up slugs to use the express lanes???
I would! I have on more than one occasion have picked up slugs after the HOV restrictions have been lifted, i.e. 7pm 8pm. Yes there were slugs out at this time. I believe all this ranting and raving, is unbilicious, yes that’s right unbilicious, unbelievable and ridiculous. If you are a slugger, you understand, and wouldn’t mind doing another slugger a solid.
The way I see it, if it was me out there, I would want someone to pick me up!
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guishermo
Junior Member
29 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2008 : 18:20:10
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If your annual gas cost were $2000 and you were to pay a $5000 premium
for a hybrid, it would take you 2.5 years to start saving
money (the real numbers are actually worse),
then, hybrid owners are effectively paying their way into
the HOV lanes, not really taking cars off the road thereby
not helping congestion.
Under such assumption, it is possible
to pay for HOV-3, and therefore to pay to keep cars on the road.
So, paying money to keep cars on the road, not save commuting time
for anyone, and not really save gas, the environment, or your
lonely commute for that matter.
How kind is that?
Is this capitalism letting money
pay for the right of way?
Is this way of paying to feel better
about your car, life, society and the environment without effectively
and realistically helping any of those?
Oh my... |
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NoSUV
Advanced Member
1076 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2008 : 10:23:00
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Fuzzy math.
Look at it logically and plug in some assumptions to make the math easier - you can use actual numbers from reputable websites.
Assume both the conventional and the hybrid travel 15,000 miles per year. Assume the conventional gets a combined 25 mpg; the hybrid 50 mpg. Assume $3/gal.
The conventional needs 600 gal (15000/25); the hybrid 300 gal (15000/50). The difference is that the conventional needs 300 gal more than the hybrid, which is < $1000/year. |
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scottt
Moderator
415 Posts |
Posted - 02/22/2008 : 09:16:45
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BEEP! Wrong answer. You need to take a look at "like" cars. Not just a "oh let's pick 25mpg"
So, let's use a REAL scenario.
2008 Toyota Prius with VSC $23,710 MSRP, 46 combined mpg. 2008 Toyota Corolla with VSC, $17,360 MSRP, 31 combined mpg.
Gas @ $3.00 a gallon.
Let's assume on the high side for yearly mileage (which helps you). Person drives 15,000 miles a year. $1451.61 in gas for the Corolla, $978.26 for the Prius.
Price difference between the two cars, $6350.00. Difference in yearly gas charges, $473.35. Time to "break even" 13.42 years.
But hey, even if we use your 25mpg number, the "break even" point is still 7.73 years.
Damn! Sign me up for a hybrid! |
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Hybrid Owners You took Over HOV now out web site?
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