Burke/Springfield Lines revolt!
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Topic: Burke/Springfield Lines revolt!
Posted By: trbilbro
Subject: Burke/Springfield Lines revolt!
Date Posted: 15 Oct 2003 at 10:42am
If anyone has used the new Pentagon slug line for locations in Burke/Springfield, they now that the new location has pretty muched ruined the afternoon slug situation. It took me more than an hour to get home last night.
The old line was fine. There was a stack lane, and the cars waiting caused NO congestion. If they are concerned about pedestrians breaking the law by jaywalking, they should enforce the jaywalking laws. There is a crosswalk. Sluggers from Pentagon City and Crystal City don't even cross the street.
Revolt. Slugs continue to report to the old line location. Don't hold signs to avoid harrasment from the police.
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Replies:
Posted By: mirangus
Date Posted: 15 Oct 2003 at 11:11am
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I hate to break up your little anarchy parade, but the lines in their old locations DID create a LOT of congestion for everyone else. I can completely understand that you are frustrated about waiting longer than normal for a ride, but please remember that this is all still really new and drivers and riders alike are still getting used to the concept. Since they moved those lines, the Pentagon has actually become a decent place to pick up passengers again. It got so bad, prior to the move, that I stopped going to the Pentagon all together and waited in Crystal City. The flow of traffic is much improved right now.
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Posted By: trbilbro
Date Posted: 15 Oct 2003 at 11:22am
It took fully 15 minutes to get around the bend out of the Pentagon reservation. Congestion at the Pentagon is worse. More police officers have to be used. The only way it will get better is if fewer people slug, which defeats the whole purpose.
The old Burke/Springfield line had a very long stack lane, out of the main lanes on Rotary, which rarely had more than 4 cars. The other lanes to points south caused the congestion, not my line. The move puts us at the end of a very broken system.
BTW, the whole slug line thing is based on what you call anarchy. It is an informal system and regulating it always breaks it. If the current situation continues, you can bet that folks will find a way to make it work again.
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Posted By: youngtechs
Date Posted: 15 Oct 2003 at 11:43am
I would have to agree with Trbilbro. As a driver who's been picking up slugs for about a year now, it was just fine with picking up Springfield slugs where they were before. I don't understand why they moved 3 different places (each about 50 feet in length) for slugs into one central place that is about 75 feet in length. As a driver waiting for the 610/Stafford/Woodbridge cars to move out of the way is ridiculous. Plus I agree that there are more police there now directing people in and out of the slug pickup area. I've begun to adjust my schedule so I leave the Crystal City area at 6P so I don't have to deal with that mess and I can just travel in the HOV by myself. (Totally defeating the purpose)
I don't think the slug pickup lines would be so bad if they extended the length of space where people could pick up passengers by about 200+ feet. I know that's where the cars park, but couldn't we parallel the parked cars?
I wonder what they're going to do with the old Springfield/Burke pickup area...
Who can we write to to complain about this situation? Some Dept. in the Pentagon came up with this brilliant scheme and we have to give that dept some sort of feedback.
p.s. don't get me started with the drop off craziness in the AM...
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Posted By: wdossel
Date Posted: 15 Oct 2003 at 11:45am
quote:
Originally posted by trbilbro
[br]BTW, the whole slug line thing is based on what you call anarchy. It is an informal system and regulating it always breaks it. If the current situation continues, you can bet that folks will find a way to make it work again.
... well, not quite...
Anarchy: (fm the Greek "anarkhia" meaning without a ruler) 1. Absence of any form of political authority. 2. Political disorder and confusion (note: it sure wasn't political, but there was a fair amount of disorder and confusion last night...) 3. Absence of any cohering principle, as a common purpose or standard. (Webster's II)
While slugging certainly is an informal system, it by no means is absent either a common purpose or structure -- just see the threads re. rules for slugging. They just are not enforced by a recognized political authority...
- Will
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Posted By: youngtechs
Date Posted: 15 Oct 2003 at 11:50am
HMM I just checked the circular again and it said "if you have any questions, please contact Mr. Dennis Smith at 703-695-8004" Michael Bryant signed the letter.
I don't want to start a revolt, I'm just pulling this info off of the PBM-03-29
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Posted By: Gomez
Date Posted: 15 Oct 2003 at 12:05pm
I suppose we had better be accurate and complete in some of these posts. I (and apparently trbilbro) are primarily Burke/Springfield guys, so our "before the change" comments refer to THAT old pickup location, where the only problem I ever saw was jaywalking. No congestion, no dangerous lane-crossing to make your turn-off, etc. And it certainly wasn't close enough to the Pentagon to pose a security threat. i.e IT WORKED! And as my father always says, "If it works, don't fix it!"
Whether all of the other slug lines that have been relocated are better off, I can't say.
As for the "revolt", how can the police (within the bounds of the law)forbid one from standing on ANY public spot awaiting a ride?! I see DOZENS of people and cars IN THE PENTAGON PARKING LOT, RIGHT NEXT TO THE CORRIDOR 2 and 3 ENTRANCES waiting to pick up or to be picked up. Granted, these are specific cars for specific passengers rather than the "generic" slug paradigm, but it seems that legally there is no difference. The slug pickup line can be wherever the slugs themselves choose to have it. If we are driven out from reasonable locations by DPS, then the line will relocate somewhere else - let's try parking lot lane 10 as a random suggestion.
The fact remains - THIS SYSTEM DOESN'T WORK as currrently configured. Doubling the duration of one's commute can in no way be characterized as "improving" the situation.
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Posted By: trbilbro
Date Posted: 15 Oct 2003 at 12:12pm
Well, the Pentagon is a military reservation, so you don't enjoy the same rights as you normally would in a truly public place. That being said, as long as you don't hold a sign up advertising that you are in a slug line, I doubt that the police would bother you. They are much too busy with the mess they have created.
I will attempt to use the old line "informally" next time I slug. If others see me, perhaps it will grow again. If people would just use the crosswalks to get to it, there would be no problem.
Maybe we can move the whole thing over to Petagon City!
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Posted By: trbilbro
Date Posted: 16 Oct 2003 at 7:50am
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I picked up slugs at the old Burke line yesterday. There were about 5 or 6 people lined up around 4:10pm. The old line is alive.
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Posted By: mirangus
Date Posted: 16 Oct 2003 at 2:25pm
Like I said before in my previous post, I can completely understand your frustration with the new system because of walking further or more traffic congestion your way, or whatever. I don't go down that far, so I don't see your traffic and therefore cannot make any comments to that. However, I do know that before they moved the lines, it was so unbearable to navigate to where I would pick up that I stopped using the Pentagon altogether. I looked forward to this move to ease the congestion of everyone, not just where I need to go. The congestion that was there before the move was everyone's fault, not Springfield or Stafford/F'burg or Prince William, it was combination of everyone trying to stuff 10 lbs of you-know-what into a 5 lb bag, there was just too much going on in too little a space. I have noticed a dramatic improvement in, not only where I need to go, but entering the compound at all!! Logic dictates that when you space things out, there is more room to navigate and things are a bit less hectic.
As for the cops directing traffic, I can only assume that they'll be there about as long as they normally are, about 3 weeks or so, then they disappear until the traffic patterns change again, so we'll all have to endure that one.
I know it may be a pain to walk a little further, but unless you are a driver who has endured the pre-move traffic, you really can't possibly fathom what a breath of fresh air it is now to navigate around the Pentagon. As with anything else, give it a little while (more than a week and a half) for things to settle down and become the norm, then complain if it is still to much to take.
As for breaking the new policy and standing wherever you want, more power to ya, but just know that once drivers get a taste of this nice new traffic pattern, they will hesitate to use the Pentagon anymore if traffic ever goes back to anywhere near the way it was. Ergo, less drivers = longer waits for slugs. Just something else to think about.
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Posted By: trbilbro
Date Posted: 16 Oct 2003 at 7:28pm
Perhaps you should read the other posts in this thread, and all the numerous other threads. The widespread opinion is that the new slug locations have made the traffic situation much, much worse for drivers and riders. The designed solution is flawed in so many ways; and no real input was publicly solicited. I am not sure how this is any safer either.
Anyone who has to navigate the cul de sac from Hell after 4:30 or so is better off taking the main lines.
A crystal city line for Springfield is forming next week, so hopefully there will be a way to avoid the new "better" slug lines!
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Posted By: Gomez
Date Posted: 17 Oct 2003 at 7:57am
Well, Mirangus, you know what they say about opinions and everyone having one. For Springfield/Burke, this relocation remains a disaster, in more ways than one.
I've been slugging, both as passenger and driver, for three years. I liked the OLD, old system where we'd line up at the old Metrobus stop and snare the slugs (or get snared) heading out to the parking lot. I disliked, but didn't really see a loss of efficiency in, the more recent old system of lining up out on Rotary road. But this latest change increases the time to get through the traffic at the pickup area, and my commute time has increased an average of 50%. That is just plain STUPID, no matter how you slice it.
I guess if it's good news for you, great, but Springfiled/Burke is getting screwed, as now, the Pentagon slug line is splitting and a new one at Rosslyn will make it even harder to get through the line and find riders at the Pentagon, so we are now reaping the "benefits" of this relocation two-fold. More congestion, AND fewer riders (as they bolt for other locations), which will increase the time cars wait, increasing congestion, and so on....
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Posted By: mirangus
Date Posted: 17 Oct 2003 at 11:10am
Yes, Gomez, I do know what they say about opinions. I also know what they say about catching bees with honey instead of vinegar. I also know what they say about actions being louder than words. I see people who complain but take no action. Has anyone even bothered to talk to the POCs listed on the other thread? Does anyone even have a solution to lay on the table to anyone?? The only one I've heard so far is trbilbro's mention of starting a Crystal City line. If it bothers you all so badly, how come someone hasn't mentioned moving Springfield back to where it was and keeping the PW lines in their new location?? (Sorry to PW slugs, but your old location really screwed everything up...)
My point being...
I know this is message board to talk about and vent slugging frustrations and I shouldn't even give a hoot about your situation, because, quite honestly, our situation is better now with the new changes. But with suggestion of "anarchy," my brows were raised in concern with what would most likely happen. Chaos would ensue and maybe, quite possibly, someone would get hurt. A pedestrian could get struck by a vehicle for crossing somewhere that a motorist would no longer expect, etc... No one wants that. The thing to do is voice your complaint and a proposed solution to the right people. Turn your frustrations into something constructive and change your situation!!
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Posted By: trbilbro
Date Posted: 17 Oct 2003 at 1:07pm
We are. The whole point of this thread was to DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. Whether it be lobby the Pentagon to change it back to the old line, move the line to Crystal City or to do something else. We are trying to do something about it by initiating discussion on this forum. The RIGHT PEOPLE are the others who slug. This is where we talk about it. Proposing a move of line is not anarchy. You brought in the whole anarchy theme here. I suggested a revolt. Not your torches and pitcforks at the Bastille revolt. A peacefull attempt to keep the Springfield slug lines where the were. If the police stop it, okay. We are not going to jail for it or anything.
By the way, the whole slugging thing relies a bit on chaos. The reason it works is because it is largely informal and doesn't require a lot planning. If you try too hard to have orderly pick up points and official stack lanes for slugging, you break the system down. Slugging works because of its informal nature. There is a protocol, but regulating like a taxi stand or bus stop ruins it.
The bottom line here is that the move of the Springfield Burke lines was unnecessary and it has reduced the number of slugs and drivers who use the line. If that was this purpose, then it succeeded.
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Posted By: mirangus
Date Posted: 20 Oct 2003 at 10:32am
quote:
Originally posted by trbilbro
[br]We are. The whole point of this thread was to DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. Whether it be lobby the Pentagon to change it back to the old line, move the line to Crystal City or to do something else. We are trying to do something about it by initiating discussion on this forum. The RIGHT PEOPLE are the others who slug. This is where we talk about it. Proposing a move of line is not anarchy. You brought in the whole anarchy theme here. I suggested a revolt. Not your torches and pitcforks at the Bastille revolt. A peacefull attempt to keep the Springfield slug lines where the were. If the police stop it, okay. We are not going to jail for it or anything.
No, but because there will be confusion on where to go, neither riders NOR drivers will be efficient in getting home. No one will know where the heck to go from day-to-day. Some will go to the old line, some will go to the new location. Everyone will have a much longer wait to get home.
By the way, the whole slugging thing relies a bit on chaos. The reason it works is because it is largely informal and doesn't require a lot planning. If you try too hard to have orderly pick up points and official stack lanes for slugging, you break the system down. Slugging works because of its informal nature. There is a protocol, but regulating like a taxi stand or bus stop ruins it.
I don't think slugging is chaotic at all. Slug stands in line, driver calls out destination, slug gets in car, all arrive at commuter lot/work happy. How, pray tell, does organization break things down? Please explain.
The bottom line here is that the move of the Springfield Burke lines was unnecessary and it has reduced the number of slugs and drivers who use the line. If that was this purpose, then it succeeded.
I'm sorry that your line was inconvenienced. I would be very interested to know how other destination lines (Stafford/Prince William County/Fredericksburg) fared in the "move." What are some other opinions out there?
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Posted By: tdar20
Date Posted: 20 Oct 2003 at 12:30pm
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Life goes on, things change....get on with life. Pentagon has a reason to shift the lines and unless you get them to officially change them then you are hurting the system by walking around looking for rides. Dont forget the security issues they are trying to deal with also.
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Posted By: LB
Date Posted: 20 Oct 2003 at 12:38pm
I slug from the Rt. 17/Fredericksburg lines and we stayed put, although drivers have often complained that it has always taken too long to wind around to our location. The Springfield lines, where they used to be, as far as I could see, did not clog up traffic. We have, however, noticed a big difference with the move of the Potomac Mills/Horner Rd. lines. Before their move, their long line of cars blocked the Fredericksburg/Stafford slug cars from getting out of the parking lot and many of those drivers did not want to let us out because a couple more cars would then whip in front of them. Couldn't really blame them, but it had a negative impact on our lines. That aspect has improved 100%. I'm sorry that I have no suggestions, but I hope that someone comes up with a plan that makes the traffic flow easier for all.
IN RESPONSE TO--
I would be very interested to know how other destination lines (Stafford/Prince William County/Fredericksburg) fared in the "move." What are some other opinions out there?
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