Accountability and Petition Plans
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Forum Name: Hybrids
Forum Description: This area is devoted to the discussion of hybrid vehicles and their impact to the HOV.
URL: http://www.slug-lines.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3164
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Topic: Accountability and Petition Plans
Posted By: Bob
Subject: Accountability and Petition Plans
Date Posted: 28 Feb 2007 at 8:37am
First, anyone who receives correspondence from their delegate or senator, (or US representative), please post it here (take your name off). I want to read any and all explanations of this vote. To date, I have gotten one email from Toddy Puller, simply stating the fact that the vote for the exemption was unanimous. What a copout. Not even any explanation or the honesty to even tell me her opinion.
Second, I want to organize a petition drive this summer.
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Replies:
Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 28 Feb 2007 at 9:55am
Bob,
Actually, both my senator and delegate told me last year that they supported the exemption. If you'll recall, I polled many of the candidates before the last election and cound find NONE in either party who was opposed to it. I was rather surprised by Jody's posting from Albo earlier this year to the contrary - that is the only time I've heard of any opposition, and, well, Albo's record speaks for itself.
The problem you are likely to run into is that you can vote out the incumbant, but the replacement will probably have the exact same view. After all, the overwhelming majority of people in the Commonwealth believe the hybrid exemption is exactly what is needed - or they have no stake in the matter.
You belong to a fringe minority. But, please, don't let that stop you.
By the way, I also polled US Rep Davis on this, and he told me that he supported the exemption but that it should be evaluated every year to see if it was still appropriate based on traffic. It was the closest of anyone to not giving a hearty endorsement.
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Posted By: No2HOV-1
Date Posted: 01 Mar 2007 at 10:40am
Message sent to VA Delegates:
Gentlemen, Last year the voters in Virginia were promised that the exemption for Hybrid cars to use the HOV with less than three persons would not be extended this year. It is my understanding that the exemption has been renewed. The traffic congestion on I-95 is due to volume. Allowing individuals to use the HOV offers no incentive to carpool and help reduce the number of cars on the road. In addition, as traffic becomes more congested, the amount of air pollution from regular cars only increases due to inefficiencies. The near term solution to reducing traffic congestion on I-95 South is to make the HOV three for all cars or even four to help reduce volume. I challenge either of you two gentlemen to travel on I-95 South between Washington and Fredericksburg at 5PM any weeknight and tell me less cars would not improve conditions. Please encourage Governor Kaine to veto the hybrid exemption as a benefit to a vast majority of Virginia voters. Thank you.
Response from Delegate Mark Cole:
I understand your concerns. The exemption for hybrids purchased before July 2006 was extended for another year. I think most believe that limiting it to hybrids purchased before July 2006 was a reasonable compromise and that will cause a gradual decline in the number of hybrids using the HOV lanes. Of course the real solution is to expand the HOV and regular lanes on I95 which is what I am pushing for.
Thanks,
Mark Cole
Delegate, 88th District
Stafford, Spotsylvania, and Fauquier Counties
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Posted By: SpongeBob
Date Posted: 01 Mar 2007 at 11:27am
OK. Now please write him back and make sure he understands that "expanding HOV" by putting tolls on the existing portion will actually cause the elimination of HOV, since there is no technical way to count the number of passengers in a vehicle, and therefore no way to allow free HOV use.
All cars will be tolled at the same rate, and so there will be far less incentive to ride share.
Plus, does he know the expected cost of a commute from Spotsylvania to DC on the new tollway? Over $30 EACH WAY. Everyday. Does he really want to vote for that tax on his constituents? They use the road for free right now...
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Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 01 Mar 2007 at 1:01pm
The letter from No2HOV-1 is riddled with errors. No promise was ever made on not extending the exemption; in fact, it was nearly the opposite.
I like the proposal by the Mayor of London reported in the Post 2/28 to charge fees (tolls?) based on emissions, with the worst offenders paying up to $49/day.
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Posted By: MDC
Date Posted: 01 Mar 2007 at 1:34pm
Mr. Troll,
I'm sure that any correspondence you've had with your elected representatives have been fact checked and were found to be 100% accurate. Just like everything you post here.
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Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 01 Mar 2007 at 2:28pm
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MDC - several of the messages I sent to candidates were provided to Robert Lang, including the responses. Thanks for helping.
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Posted By: sluDgE
Date Posted: 01 Mar 2007 at 6:03pm
Bob,
Goober wrote about the canned response he got from a delegate in another string and is now contemplating writing to the Governor. Info below is FYI..
About the comment on contacting the Governor ...
Here's a quote from the current Governor's website at http://www.governor.virginia.gov/AboutTheGovernor/biography.cfm
"In transportation, Governor Kaine is working to promote greater accountability, with a focus on measurable improvements, better connections between land use and transportation planning, and greater investments in road, rail and public transportation infrastructure. During his first year in office, he has recruited innovative transportation professionals and made significant advances in land use reforms that will make Virginia’s transportation network serve people better."
If you want to "contact" him, you can send a message at http://www.governor.virginia.gov/AboutTheGovernor/contactGovernor.cfm
It would be interesting to see what, if any, response you would get.
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Posted By: darkprime
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2007 at 9:34am
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I just sent a nice long explanation and mentioned this site too.
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Posted By: No2HOV-1
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2007 at 9:46am
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The correspondence is factual. That is what was sent to Delegate Cole and that is his response. Delegate Cole voted against the exemption last year and this year he abstained from voting. Whether there was a "promise" for July 06 thru Jun 07 to be the last year, that's debatable. That was my inferrence as well as others. However, I've come to realize that the exemption will always continue because there are only a few of the delegates and senators who could care about this issue and they will never have the number of votes to reject the bill. The only way to stop it is to not have it introduced or to not have the Transportation Committee refer it to the House or Senate, but that will never happen because voting for the exemption makes the delegates and senators look good on the environment.
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Posted By: n/a
Date Posted: 09 Mar 2007 at 1:48pm
quote:
Originally posted by SpongeBob
[br]OK. Now please write him back and make sure he understands that "expanding HOV" by putting tolls on the existing portion will actually cause the elimination of HOV, since there is no technical way to count the number of passengers in a vehicle, and therefore no way to allow free HOV use.
All cars will be tolled at the same rate, and so there will be far less incentive to ride share.
Plus, does he know the expected cost of a commute from Spotsylvania to DC on the new tollway? Over $30 EACH WAY. Everyday. Does he really want to vote for that tax on his constituents? They use the road for free right now...
Spongy, I suspect you're half-right (and half-left). The likely solution is that EVERYONE will be tolled and HOVers will have to petition Flour to remove the fees that appear on their EZPass. I suspect HOVers would also need to provide written documentation of their carpool (similar to what many agencies do now to allow carpool parking). This also means that there would be qualification criteria, and perhaps even required notorized "carpool participation" affidavits and other processes (hoops to jump through) before the tolls could be removed. Forget that the whole EZPass system is an intrusive, big brotheresque means to track our comings and goings (read "1984," "Brave New World" or "Atlas Shrugged").
However, this makes total sense when you remember that this is designed solely to discourage carpooling and encourage toll paying.
The moral of the story is that whenever the government gets involved in something they screw it up for everyone!
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Posted By: SpongeBob
Date Posted: 20 Mar 2007 at 10:00am
Nah, Raymond; they are not going to implement such a paperwork-intensive, easily fooled process. Not when there is so much money at stake.
I have thought about this a lot (my wife says too much) and there is no technical way for the overhead transponders to charge one car with two people and not charge another car with three people. It can't be done.
OK, you could have cops stationed at numerous points along the system stopping every car with tinted windows and every van to count passengers. That would certainly make ride-sharing convenient, eh?
Remember EVERY vehicle that accesses these lanes, EVERY SINGLE ONE, must have an EZ-Pass. One theory I've heard is that carpoolers would have a "sock" to put their transponder in that would keep it from being charged by the toll booths. But what is to stop me from putting my transponder in the sock all the time? Heck, we could all do that any time we want! Do you think Flour/Transurban will let us do that?
So what is their alternative? Toll everyone!
Look, Kirby said it plain as day in the Post: HOV-3 won't be free.
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Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 21 Mar 2007 at 10:02am
Sponge -
Currently, CA 91 has a system for carpoolers to use the toll lanes. There are 2 lanes as you approach the unmanned electronic toll station; one for carpool and one for others. I suspect that enforcement is conducted via video surveillance of the lanes. Both lanes require the use of a transponder.
When you think about it, without a video surveillance, what's to keep those without transponders from using the lanes? If not video, then how are the toll lanes enforced without 24/7 police? The conclusion is that there has to be both the transponder recorder and a video system.
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Posted By: SpongeBob
Date Posted: 21 Mar 2007 at 12:32pm
Yes, I've looked at the SR91 model. It is not applicable to the system as proposed by Fluor/Transurban. That road is only 10 miles long, not 35+, it has one entrance and one exit, not a dozen or more as will be the case with the planned toll road here, it has one tolling point, not several dozen as we will have. It has far, far fewer vehicles on it. It has two lanes, not three. It is used mostly, according to its statistics, by housewives going shopping and is not a central commuter route. It was not a pre-existing HOV, but was custom-built within the bounds of the existing freeway.
Carpools are not free during commuting hours on SR91, as was promised, but are tolled with a mild discount. That is the point.
The tolling on SR91 is not "congestion dynamic", as is planned for traffic management purpose on I95, but is based on a published schedule.
Current prices on SR91 (which increase every six months) are about 92.5 cents per mile in the evening and about 45 cents in the morning. Why expect anything cheaper here? Do the math on a daily commute from Woodbridge.
The lone toll checkpoint on SR91 is a video camera running tape, with the occasional human in the booth. Any chance that would work here given the traffic volume and speeds on our road? Given the fact you can't look inside a van? Given the darkness in the morning and a set of tinted windows?
Finally, SR91 included a controversial if not entirely sick-minded "non-compete" clause that only you could love.
Still, SR91 failed as private venture and had to be rescued by the state.
To compare the two roads either 1) displays your ignorance or 2)proves our suspicions that you are a troll in the gainful employ of someone with a financial incentive to toll the citizens of Virginia. (And please, don't do your usual attempt to divert the argument by saying that I, too, have a financial incentive at stake. Duh.)
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Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 21 Mar 2007 at 2:41pm
Sponge- the point is that IT IS TECHNOLOGICALLY FEASIBLE, which seems to soak right through you. Ever been on SR91? I drive it about once every 3 months using the regular lanes. As I've said with the hybrid, try it before saying it has no possibilty of working.
Is it possible that the carpools on SR91 could travel without a toll? Why, yes, it is!
Was the "improvement" based on widening the freeway, just like what it proposed in NOVA?
Why, yes, it was!
Is there serious congestion on SR91?
Why, it's almost identical to NOVA, with the regular lanes barely moving and the express lanes zooming during commuting (and most non-commuting) hours!
Can there be more than one entry and exit point on an electronic toll system?
My goodness, you think?
I agree that the illegal tinting of windows could be a factor - for which the video system could also record and send a ticket.
Squeezed enough or do you want to keep going?
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Posted By: beachhead
Date Posted: 21 Mar 2007 at 2:52pm
Sponge,
Like you, I have never believed the "HOV-3 rides free" nonsense. There are only two viable alternative with HOT: 1) Install manned (womaned, if you prefer) toll booths along with an EZ pass lane at all entry points so that carpools are let through free, or 2) Charge all cars regardless of number of passengers, make, model, color, creed or religion.
Since most entry points don't have space for two lanes to accommodate option 1) and no self-respecting private company is going to hire more employees if it can get away without hiring any, it seems pretty obvious that option 2) will win the day. R.I.P. slug system.
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Posted By: SpongeBob
Date Posted: 21 Mar 2007 at 4:17pm
Yes, beachhead, option 2 is inevitable since the whole point to this is to do everything automatically. There may be toll gantries every mile inside the Beltway because the toll is done in segments; it is not based on your entry point alone.
NoSUV: So maybe you can tell me how, technically, they are going to do this people-counting at multiple points along the road at 65mph?
Are they going to ask us to pull over into a special checking lane fifteen times between Route 234 and the 14th St. Bridge? That is the system on SR91 and it clearly won't work in the system proposed for I95.
How will an automated toll gantry distinguish between car A with two people (cha ching), and car B with three people (free)? They don't have that problem on SR 91 because lower-priced HOV cars go into a separate toll and checkpoint lane. One Time! Not twenty.
Could carpools travel without a toll on SR91? Sure, that was the promise, wasn't it? But is it free today, in reality? Of course not! Thanks for making my point.
And yes, there can be multiple exit and entry points on an auto-tolling system... provided that the toll is the same for every vehicle and the machine doesn't have to count passengers, which it can't do, and charge different amounts. Thanks for making my point again.
Finally, legal tinting of windows is more than sufficient to make it impossible to use a video camera to count passengers, as you can see for yourself everyday on our roads. Many is the time, on a bright sunny day, when I cannot tell if the car next to us is HOV or a cheater. Plus, southern states allow darker tinting than northern states... are you going to send tickets to every dark-windowed Floridian who dares drive on a federal highway his tax dollars paid for? What about panel vans? Planning to stop them all and peer in the back?
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Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 22 Mar 2007 at 7:28am
Sponge - you seem to be a savvy commuter. Have you ever used a Smart Card? Do you have to swipe your card at every station? How does the card know how much to charge you between your entry and exit point? Is there a reason the transponder in a car can't use the same technology as the Smart Card so you only have to be recorded at your entry and exit point?
Are you also saying that the technology doesn't exist for video cameras to slow the video down when reading it and that the digital clarity is less than what we currently can get on our TV sets? And why would you need to people count at multiple points instead of just entry/exit (which is what they do on SR 91)?
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Posted By: SpongeBob
Date Posted: 22 Mar 2007 at 1:49pm
Huh? Your first question doesn't even make sense -- it isn't even a question. The point isn't whether the technology exists to charge a variable amount as the cars pass under the gantries -- that isn't the issue. The issue is that it will have to charge EVERY car the SAME amount because on one day you might have two people in that car and the next you might have three and be, supposedly, able to ride for free.
Yes, I am saying that the technology DOES NOT EXIST to do that. Digital clarity? Through the side of a panel van? Huh?
Perhaps you have conveniently forgotten my previous postings in which Dr. Smith of UVA, a member of the advisory panel for HOT lanes, said that vehicle occupancy checks can only be done manually, not by video.
The reason that you need to verify passengers at each tolling point is obvious: if you have a transponder in your car, the gantry charges you at each tolling point. For HOV to be free, either your transponder will have to be turned off when you are on the toll roads and carrying three, or you will need a special transponder. So what is to keep cheaters from putting the transponder in the "sock" or oops accidentally forgetting to bring their non-HOV transponder with them that day. In other words, there is no way to stop cheating, which disrupts the business model and irritates the investors.
Ergo, the only way to operate the system to produce revenue and reduce cheating is to just toll everyone. Like they do on SR91.
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Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 26 Mar 2007 at 2:21pm
sponge - Ah, I see the problem. You are stuck on there being several toll points for a single vehicle on a single trip.
Not needed. Just have to record the beginning and end. That means only toll stations at entry and exit points.
Bob proposed the simplist solution to the HOV count - you put signals at the entry points (he put the idea forward to regulate traffic entry, but it solves the same purpose by allowing cameras to have the time to video the occupants as well as the plates).
So you make all entry points at least 2 lanes - those paying a toll and those believing they have an exemption. Transponders needed for both, but for the exemption, the record goes to a different file than those paying. At vehicle exit point, the transponder is again recorded and then matched up to the entry file. Those without exemption get their bill (debit); those exempt don't. Random monitoring of video determines who gets to pay the (healthy) fine for being in the wrong lane.
Too simple?
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Posted By: MDC
Date Posted: 27 Mar 2007 at 9:02am
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Yes, it's too simple. Cameras can't count people in the back seats when there are darker tinted windows, or in the dark. And that's assuming that a camera can count people, which they can't. Don't suggest IR cameras because they wouldn't work during the day.
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Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 27 Mar 2007 at 12:24pm
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Sounds like HOV-2 would work.
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Posted By: JRWoodbridge
Date Posted: 28 Mar 2007 at 9:04am
To me it's becoming obvious that our Delegates are out of touch with the reality of driving in the I95 HOV. While, Delegate Cole's solution of expanding the HOV and regular lanes would help out the region, it is not a short term solution and will cost the tax payers billions of dollars. I'm not sure what is meant by a "Reasonable Compromise". If the intent of the HOV is to reduce congestion and help our environment, the only way to do that is to enforce the HOV 3 and reduce the number of cars on the road.
quote:
Originally posted by No2HOV-1
[br]Message sent to VA Delegates:
Gentlemen, Last year the voters in Virginia were promised that the exemption for Hybrid cars to use the HOV with less than three persons would not be extended this year. It is my understanding that the exemption has been renewed. The traffic congestion on I-95 is due to volume. Allowing individuals to use the HOV offers no incentive to carpool and help reduce the number of cars on the road. In addition, as traffic becomes more congested, the amount of air pollution from regular cars only increases due to inefficiencies. The near term solution to reducing traffic congestion on I-95 South is to make the HOV three for all cars or even four to help reduce volume. I challenge either of you two gentlemen to travel on I-95 South between Washington and Fredericksburg at 5PM any weeknight and tell me less cars would not improve conditions. Please encourage Governor Kaine to veto the hybrid exemption as a benefit to a vast majority of Virginia voters. Thank you.
Response from Delegate Mark Cole:
I understand your concerns. The exemption for hybrids purchased before July 2006 was extended for another year. I think most believe that limiting it to hybrids purchased before July 2006 was a reasonable compromise and that will cause a gradual decline in the number of hybrids using the HOV lanes. Of course the real solution is to expand the HOV and regular lanes on I95 which is what I am pushing for.
Thanks,
Mark Cole
Delegate, 88th District
Stafford, Spotsylvania, and Fauquier Counties
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Posted By: wdossel
Date Posted: 28 Mar 2007 at 12:18pm
quote:
Originally posted by No2HOV-1
Response from Delegate Mark Cole:
I understand your concerns. The exemption for hybrids purchased before July 2006 was extended for another year. I think most believe that limiting it to hybrids purchased before July 2006 was a reasonable compromise and that will cause a gradual decline in the number of hybrids using the HOV lanes. Of course the real solution is to expand the HOV and regular lanes on I95 which is what I am pushing for.
Thanks,
Mark Cole
Delegate, 88th District
Stafford, Spotsylvania, and Fauquier Counties
translated:
"will cause a gradual decline in the number of hybrids using the HOV lanes until HOT is implemented and I and my fellow legislators won't have to deal with this issue any more"
Seriously, assuming an average 5yr life for a 1st owner hybrid (also assuming the pre-limitation tag cannot be trf to a 2nd/new owner) and the spike in sales that occured before the cutoff date was imlpemented it would seem the two neatly coincide with the above thought...[8]
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Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 28 Mar 2007 at 1:01pm
quote:
Originally posted by JRWoodbridge
[br]To me it's becoming obvious that our Delegates are out of touch with the reality of driving in the I95 HOV. While, Delegate Cole's solution of expanding the HOV and regular lanes would help out the region, it is not a short term solution and will cost the tax payers billions of dollars. I'm not sure what is meant by a "Reasonable Compromise". If the intent of the HOV is to reduce congestion and help our environment, the only way to do that is to enforce the HOV 3 and reduce the number of cars on the road.
Originally posted by No2HOV-1
[br]
Not the only way. Another way is to go back to what it was when the express lanes were first introduced and use them for buses only. Express lanes then become congestion free and because the number of cars in those lanes becomes zero, the environment becomes better. But you have to ignore the mess in the regular lanes to come to either your conclusion or the one offerred here.
However, both express and regular lane problems are better solved by both going back to pre-1975 legislation for buses only, and adding the provision that SULEV can also use the express lanes. Congestion is still solved for the express lanes, the environment is still better (much better, since the SULEV would also be used for non-commutes), and the regular lane congestion is mitigated by removing SULEV from those lanes.
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Posted By: SpongeBob
Date Posted: 02 Apr 2007 at 1:30pm
Wrong, as usual, NoSUV.
The goal is to move the most people in the fewest vehicles. Eliminating carpools would not drive all those people to ride the bus, because they simply won't do it. (Like you, who won't ride the bus.)
So eliminating carpools would only dramatically increase the number of vehicles in the regular lanes.
Sadly, what you are envisioning is exactly what Fluor/Transurban have in mind: they call it BRT for Bus-Rapid-Transit. It is a mega-bus vehicle capable of carrying many more people than one of the traditional highway bombers that Omniride has. A BRT is something more like a short train or a double-semi.
Fluor's plan all along has been to build BRT stations along I95 and push all the carpoolers onto the mega-buses for a ride to the Pentagon, since these creatures can't negotiate the District's streets. Read Fluor's proposal and you'll see.
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Posted By: Hooch
Date Posted: 02 Apr 2007 at 9:49pm
Hey stupid, slugs contribute to the environment by getting cars of the road. Unfortunatley, those of us who bus/slug from down south (234) have had our commute times increased substantially by self serving hybrid owners who drive right by lines of people waiting in commuter lots for buses or slug rides, choosing to clog the HOV lanes. I've actually started counting hybrids that pass the bus in the morning. One day last week, 8 out of 10 vehicles that sped past the bus were hybrids. Not one had a second passenger. I didn't really think about the impact until I got within about a half mile of the pentagon and hit the backup for the exit. HOV's out the whazoo, and you'd be surprised (maybe not) how many of them took the right lane, which is for a right turn, and then turned left. Then they cut in to the correct lane to turn in to the parking areas of the pentagon. Typical self serving hybrid owners.
Hooch
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Posted By: MDC
Date Posted: 04 Apr 2007 at 1:58pm
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If population is the problem, then eliminate SOV for hybrids dimbulb. Voila, more people in less cars. It's not like there aren't well over 10K SOV hybrids in HOV.
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Posted By: MDC
Date Posted: 04 Apr 2007 at 4:15pm
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I don't see how that would lower the number of SOVs.
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Posted By: SpongeBob
Date Posted: 18 Apr 2007 at 10:17am
NoSUV, there are no plans to make a bus do what you said: express to my destination. No bus goes directly from Horner or PM straight to State. Carpools do, however.
Did you ride the bus today?
Have you EVER ridden the bus? Have you EVER ridden the Omniride bus?
I do all the time. I have a much more informed opinion of bus riders than you do, since I am one myself, and literally rub elbows with them all the time.
You know NOTHING about the bus system here. Your opinion, as usual, is worthless.
On days like today, when so much worse is going on in the world, your self-centeredness, your arrogance, your elitism, your ignorance, your goading and me-firstism, your selfishness and hypocrisy, are extremely irritating. No one understands why you are on this board. Go away.
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Posted By: CallmeMrSlug
Date Posted: 18 Apr 2007 at 10:39am
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Ahh the cantankerous Spongy one, I so much enjoy reading your posts... :-)
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Posted By: MDC
Date Posted: 18 Apr 2007 at 11:54am
Here's the ultimate video on hybrid driver smugness.
http://www.southparkx.net/episodes/1002-smug-alert
click on the "Stream (Watch Now)" link to view with flash player.
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Posted By: scottt
Date Posted: 19 Apr 2007 at 3:07am
quote:
Originally posted by SpongeBob
[br]NoSUV, there are no plans to make a bus do what you said: express to my destination. No bus goes directly from Horner or PM straight to State. Carpools do, however.
Did you ride the bus today?
Have you EVER ridden the bus? Have you EVER ridden the Omniride bus?
I do all the time. I have a much more informed opinion of bus riders than you do, since I am one myself, and literally rub elbows with them all the time.
You know NOTHING about the bus system here. Your opinion, as usual, is worthless.
On days like today, when so much worse is going on in the world, your self-centeredness, your arrogance, your elitism, your ignorance, your goading and me-firstism, your selfishness and hypocrisy, are extremely irritating. No one understands why you are on this board. Go away.
Valid point. This board is for sluggers. Why is NoSUV here. It's like a die hard Windows user on a Macintosh discussion board. Why?
---------
Still waiting for NoSUV to put up or shut up.
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Posted By: Hooch
Date Posted: 19 Apr 2007 at 4:40pm
O.K., everybody here loves hybrids. Now, go away.
Hooch
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Posted By: SpongeBob
Date Posted: 23 Apr 2007 at 10:48am
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I LOVE HYBRIDS. They are simply the ultimate in eco-friendly transportation and everyone who owns one is doing his or her part to make the world a better place.
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