Delegegates Betray Us - Extend Hybrids
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Category: Archived Slugging Topics
Forum Name: Hybrids
Forum Description: This area is devoted to the discussion of hybrid vehicles and their impact to the HOV.
URL: http://www.slug-lines.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2549
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Topic: Delegegates Betray Us - Extend Hybrids
Posted By: duckduffer
Subject: Delegegates Betray Us - Extend Hybrids
Date Posted: 03 Feb 2006 at 4:33am
Folks.. the people who we trusted in Richmond have betrayed us. I wrote to Del Mark Cole before the election with my concerns of the Hybrids on the HOV. He wrote me back saying that I would just go away. I wrote him again after the election to remind him of this issue. Again he told me that is would just go away!
I wrote him again and he replied back to me last night.. "I am not sure what will happen. The House Transportation Committee has the bills and I talked to the Chairman (I am not on that committee) and he was not sure what was going to happen. I would support phasing out the use of hybrids, but I think it would not be right to immediately cut it off. The government told people if they purchased hybrids, they could use HOV lanes. I think it would be wrong after these people spent thousands of dollars extra to purchase a hybrid to immediately turnaround and tell them sorry we changed our minds. Also I don't think the regular lanes could handle a sudden increase in cars. But I am not sure what is going to happen with it."
People.. write, call what ever.. well you can not send a telegram because Western Union has stopped that.. But we need to get the word out..
Want more infor.. send email to SAVHOV@direcway.com
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Replies:
Posted By: Bob
Date Posted: 03 Feb 2006 at 8:19am
I think a good approach is to remind them that, while extending the exemption may appear to be the easiest thing now, as the HOVs get clogged, thousands of folks will start looking around and see who voted for this extension.
One question I have, is where is the dissent from mass transit agencies? Metro and Omnilink for example. This could be an effective counter - that the exemption is fouling up bus service as well.
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Posted By: Bob
Date Posted: 03 Feb 2006 at 8:59am
from www.fredericksburg.com
Some good hybrid bashing at the end.
Senate approves bill extending HOV exemption for hybrids, increasing fines for violators
Date published: 2/3/2006
By KELLY HANNON
The Virginia Senate has voted to allow hybrid vehicles to use high-occupancy vehicle lanes until July 2007, extending the exemption for the pollution-cutting cars for another year.
But the same Senate bill would raise fines for motorists who violate the three-passenger minimum for HOV. The fine for first-time HOV violators would increase from $50 to $125.
Violators would pay $250 on the second offense, $500 on the third and $1,000 on the fourth. Virginia last increased fines in 2004, and began adding negative points to a motorist's driving record for third and later offenses.
Senate Bill 454 passed in a 35-3 vote Wednesday. It has been sent to the House, where two similar bills have already been introduced.
Local Sens. John Chichester, R-Northumberland, Edd Houck, D-Spotsylvania, and Ryan McDougle, R-Mechanicsville, supported the extension.
Houck said it wasn't a "clear-cut" vote for him because he didn't want to harm the slug-line method of carpooling. He voted for the bill because of its environmental benefit and to keep a promise to hybrid owners.
"I believe we need to be encouraging the use of clean-burning automobiles. The air quality is becoming more and more of an issue in our particular area," Houck said.
Also, owners "made an investment to buy the hybrid vehicle and one of the reasons they did it was access to HOV," he said.
"It seems a bit disingenuous that people make an investment and have done what we've promoted them to do, and then we change the rules on them."
McDougle also said he wanted to support motorists who purchased hybrids with the intent of driving them in HOV lanes. "We need to make sure they have the ability to do that for one more year," McDougle said.
Unless both houses approve the bill, the exemption will expire July 1.
Chichester could not be reached for comment yesterday.
There are 11,366 vehicles with Clean Special Fuel license plates registered in Virginia, according to the Department of Motor Vehicles. Most--10,478--are in Northern Virginia localities and the Fredericksburg area. In October 2004, there were 5,281 Clean Special Fuel vehicles registered in Virginia.
The Virginia General Assembly has the authority to regulate HOV lanes, including allowing hybrid vehicles to use them during peak traffic times, until Sept. 30, 2009.
A federal transportation bill recently gave states greater authority in this area. But there are still federal regulations to follow, such as ensuring that hybrids do not create congestion in HOV lanes, said Nancy Singer, public affairs specialist at the Federal Highway Administration in Washington.
The Senate bill got a mixed reception from local commuters.
Hybrid owner Ted Hontz, a defense contractor, was cheered by its passage. He commutes once a week to Washington or Northern Virginia from southern Stafford County in his Toyota Prius.
Hontz said HOV violators, not hybrids, are causing increased congestion. On a recent trip, he counted passing cars: 11 of the 23 were violators, he said.
"There are so many the police just can't control it," Hontz said. "They pull people over, and more people who are violating the law pass the police alongside the road."
Katie Holihan opposes any hybrid extension. Her car pool uses HOV lanes on its daily trip from Spotsylvania County to Pennsylvania Avenue in Washington. Over the past four years, what used to be an hour-long one-way commute has grown to an hour and a half. She blames hybrids in HOV lanes.
"I feel it's a detriment to all of the lanes of traffic. It's created an environment I feel encourages selfishness," Holihan said.
She acknowledged that violators also clog HOV lanes, but said she spots more hybrid cars than individuals flouting the law.
"When you're in the HOV lanes and you look to your side, in front of you, it's hybrid, hybrid, hybrid, single person, single person, single person. I really do believe high occupancy should mean high occupancy," Holihan said.
Two bills have been submitted in the House of Delegates that would extend hybrid use of HOV lanes for two years--until July 1, 2008. Neither includes any increase in fines.
Both have been referred to a House subcommittee on transportation.
To reach KELLY HANNON:540/374-5436
Email: khannon@freelancestar.com
Date published: 2/3/2006
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Posted By: Luddite
Date Posted: 03 Feb 2006 at 9:01am
Bob,
Excellent point about Metro and Omnilink. Let's not forget that what is probably going to come down in the General Assembly is not going to be a victory for the SOV hybrids, although they will think so momentarily, and that all kinds of folks who believe in magic will be buying up hybrids like hotcakes. The reality is that sov hybrids are stuck in the same mess as the rest of us with hov3. SOV hybrids don't have it better than us hov3. They have it exactly as bad as us. SOV hybrids only have it better than mainline traffic. The good news is that when hov is solid to and from 234, probably by the end of this year, the sov hybrids will be able to help us voice opposition to HOT lanes.
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Posted By: duckduffer
Date Posted: 03 Feb 2006 at 10:12am
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Folks.. this is all good. but is anyone contacting their reps and the Gov in Richmond???? Let's some posting here and send emails to all our reps in Richmond.. Let them know how we feel![B)]
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Posted By: MDC
Date Posted: 03 Feb 2006 at 11:11am
Luddite,
You're wrong in your assessment. SOV hybrids don't deal with parking, slug lines, drop-offs, or any of the normal carpool or slug activites. They can save 10, 20, or more minutes each way by taking the shortest route and not dealing with any of that. Even under optimal slugging conditions with no waiting in line, you'll never have as short a commute as the SOV hybrids.
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Posted By: MDC
Date Posted: 03 Feb 2006 at 11:14am
"It seems a bit disingenuous that people make an investment and have done what we've promoted them to do, and then we change the rules on them."
It seems that the rules were already set, and they all knew the exemption would expire in 2004, and later in 2006.
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Posted By: dickboyd
Date Posted: 03 Feb 2006 at 11:22am
quote:
Originally posted by MDC
[br]"It seems a bit disingenuous that people make an investment and have done what we've promoted them to do, and then we change the rules on them."
It seems that the rules were already set, and they all knew the exemption would expire in 2004, and later in 2006.
Which rules are you describing? The original rules that attempted to keep ALL lanes free flowing? The original rules which were HOV-4?
If thinking up answers to these questions gives you a headache, take two asprins, recruit three slugs and call me on Monday.
dickboyd@aol.com
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Posted By: MDC
Date Posted: 03 Feb 2006 at 12:04pm
dickboyd,
When people bought their hybrids (which the article was about), they knew there was a sunset date on the exemption. That's what I'm talking about.
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Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 03 Feb 2006 at 1:46pm
quote:
Originally posted by duckduffer
[br]Folks.. this is all good. but is anyone contacting their reps and the Gov in Richmond???? Let's some posting here and send emails to all our reps in Richmond.. Let them know how we feel![B)]
I've contacted many - and sent proof to Robert Lang. Have yet to find a delegate NOT in favor of extending the exemption.
The article is interesting - proves that without incentive, few seem to want to improve the environment by buying a hybrid. Also proves that you don't have to take taxpayer funds to provide an incentive. Folks in Germany that I spoke with over the summer couldn't believe that Virginia even had such a progressive plan to try to improve the environment - "That's so unlike America," they said. After all, how many miles do YOU drive SOV in your "no attempt to improve fuel economy or air quality" vehicle? Unless you are walking everywhere, you are the problem.
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Posted By: MDC
Date Posted: 03 Feb 2006 at 2:24pm
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Don't worry NoSUV. Soon HOV will stand for Hybrid Only Vehicles, and you can go back to calling them HOV again!
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Posted By: Patriot37
Date Posted: 03 Feb 2006 at 2:45pm
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Well said. It is evident, from the people to the delegtes, that we wan't to make better environmental and technology choices that also fit our daily lives. These incentives are proving very useful and the hybrids are just a scratch in the scratch. With what the hybrids have started will be truely incredible in 5 or 10 years. Imagine a mass transit hydrogen powered van? See you in the future.
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Posted By: MDC
Date Posted: 03 Feb 2006 at 3:12pm
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It's simple why they would vote the way they did. You don't even have to study the issue to know that being "pro hybrid" is an easy "pro environment" position to take regardless of it's effect on the environment. It doesn't matter that congested HOV lanes is about the worst thing they could do for the environment, traffic and pollution wise.
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Posted By: Luddite
Date Posted: 03 Feb 2006 at 3:40pm
MDC,
My assessment was about the travel mess in the HOV lanes not other activities. I guess that your assessment should have mentioned that those who skip breakfast would also have a shorter commute. Respectfully submitted with tongue planted firmly in cheek. For now, let's just stay focused on picking on the sov hybrids.
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Posted By: MDC
Date Posted: 03 Feb 2006 at 4:53pm
It was about skipping lines, not breakfast. Even if the Hybrid driver eats breakfast, and the slugs skip, they are going to get to work faster than most slugs taking the same route.
That's why they don't care as much about HOV lane congestion. Their trips are a lot shorter than ours.
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Posted By: James-G
Date Posted: 05 Feb 2006 at 7:30am
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I am outraged that this would pass the Senate when it is so clear that hyprids are choking the HOV lanes. I have writen to my House Delegate strongly encouraging her to oppose this bill. I don't think it is too late for us to stop this. There are many more Sluggers, Carpoolers, and Bus riders than hyprid owners. James
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Posted By: Man of Reason
Date Posted: 05 Feb 2006 at 10:27am
quote:
Originally posted by James-G
[br]I am outraged that this would pass the Senate when it is so clear that hyprids are choking the HOV lanes. I have writen to my House Delegate strongly encouraging her to oppose this bill. I don't think it is too late for us to stop this. There are many more Sluggers, Carpoolers, and Bus riders than hyprid owners. James
Great to hear that reasonable heads are prevailing in the VA Assembly...A compromise solution has always been the correct path for hybrids using the HOV lanes in VA....Ending legislation because it's been too successful??? that's bassackwards...also, too much congestion in the regular lanes....where would you put the additional cars??
I commute daily using a Civic Hybrid on the HOV lanes (after 7:30 in the am and before 5:00 in the pm, hov-2 and alone ) and continue to be struck by the assertion of sluggers, vanpoolers, etc.that the HOV lanes are overcrowded (some commuters on pro-slugging websites even claim, ridiculously so, that there's often more congestion in HOV vs. non-HOV...). If these people were being honest, they would tell you that with the exception of bottlenecks at two points in the HOV corridor (beginning at Edsell Rd. through the Springfield Interchange where ALL vehicles are allowed to enter HOV and the Eads St. exit at the Pentagon) traffic moves at a steady pace of 65+ miles an hour. If anything, I would contend that the HOV lanes along the I-95 corridor are underutilized given the extreme congestion problems experienced in non-HOV lanes.
An article by "Dr. Gridlock" (Ron Shaffer) of the Washington Post echo's my sentiment and it seems the majority of users in HOV lanes; In the
article he asked readers for their counts and opinions of hybrid vehicles in the HOV-3 lanes. The consensus among readers was that there is not a
congestion problem outside of the bottlenecks mentioned above and that hybrids should continue to be allowed for this use...The following were
some of the conclusions drawn and a link to the article:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A46042-2005Feb23.html
Given the above, not to mention the fuel crisis we're in here in America, the move toward HOT lanes along I-95 and overall support of the hybrid exemption (see below), extending the exemption in one form or another is the only logical course of action.....
Other Facts
The Washington Post conducted a scientific survey of attitudes toward hybrids and the use of HOV lanes in VA. "In a recent Washington Post poll, 56 percent
of Northern Virginians said single-person hybrid vehicles should be allowed to use carpool lanes, and 43 percent said they should not. Across the
region, 53 percent said they should be allowed and 45 percent said they should not. To measure attitudes toward commuting, The Post interviewed 1,003 randomly selected adults in the Washington area Jan. 27 to 31." 2005
In addition, national polling favors hybrid use in HOV-lanes; MSNBC poll did poll similar to the Washington Post....70% support the hybrid exemption in
HOV....1682 people were polled...(http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A54561-2005Jan6.html
)...
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Posted By: Beckie5
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2006 at 8:49am
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I think that the voters should vote. Not voting in a poll, but vote to elect or not to elect the Hybrid allowance. I do not believe that Richmond is putting the interest of the voters first.
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Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2006 at 3:06pm
quote:
Originally posted by Beckie5
[br]I think that the voters should vote. Not voting in a poll, but vote to elect or not to elect the Hybrid allowance. I do not believe that Richmond is putting the interest of the voters first.
The voters HAVE voted. Unlike California, where elected representatives abdicate their responsibilities, we voted for people and empowered them to represent our opinions. I polled all of the candidates asking for my vote on the hybrid exemption and intended to use that as a criteria for my vote. It didn't help since every one of them supported extention.
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Posted By: duckduffer
Date Posted: 07 Feb 2006 at 2:07pm
[:(!][:(!][:(!]Man of Reason...or any other Hybrid owner for that manner.
Please tell me what HOV-2 is on I-95 or I-395? I only see HOV-3 signs, is there something I am missing here. What gives you the right to say that it is okay for you to add more cars to the road because you can afford $25,000 or so, on a commuting car? Do you know that doing over 55 you are as fuel efficient as a 4 cylinder gas engine? What about all the space you take up parking these cars once you get to where you are going? Cut down those tress; pave the National Mall so you can park them there. This way the tourist can see your wonderful Hybrids, instead of the trees, gardens and grass. Pave the land with more parking lots with concrete and asphalt. This is good for the environment.
What is so wrong with using a Hybrid and riding with 3 or more people? The mentality of I have to drive by myself cause. I am selfish has to stop. We need to find ways to take cars off the road not add more. . Why do most of the hybrids on the road have 4 doors, when only 1 is used?
What is the REASON!
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Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 07 Feb 2006 at 3:39pm
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duckdugger - the logical and reasonable extention of your question leads one to wonder why you aren't taking public transportation. After all, isn't HOV-40 better than HOV-3? What are YOU doing about going by bus?
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Posted By: n/a
Date Posted: 07 Feb 2006 at 3:50pm
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Bottom line is that ANY single occupant, fossil fuel vehicle is part of the problem, not part of the solution. As I have said before many times, hybrids are a stopgap solution, a bandaid, and a marketing ploy designed to distract us from the problem and perpetuate a revenue flow to the auto manufacturers. The problem is dependency on non-renewable fuel sources. The longer hybrids are touted as a solution (and supported by this exemption), the longer we waste money feeding the auto manufacturer's coffers and waste time not developing autos that run on renewable fuel. We need to invest in solution technologies! Not marketing scams designed to keep the auto and fuel companies in business. When they design a car that runs on biodiesel, methanol, ethanol, hydrogen, or any other renewable fuel, I'll but it! Until then, hybrids are a scam, and SOV hybrids do not belong in the HOV lanes.
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Posted By: n/a
Date Posted: 07 Feb 2006 at 3:54pm
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BTW, politicians vote for the laws that they are paid to vote for. And who do you think pays for favorable laws? Who do you think carries more weight in congress, us or the auto lobby? When the lobbists for petro fuel call Richmond, do you think there is a politician that would not take that call? What about you or I? Just because they support the exemption does not make it right!
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Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 08 Feb 2006 at 10:19am
quote:
Originally posted by raymond
[br]Bottom line is that ANY single occupant, fossil fuel vehicle is part of the problem, not part of the solution. ... Until then, hybrids are a scam, and SOV hybrids do not belong in the HOV lanes.
Why isn't the bottom line that ANY non-public transportation solution for commuting is part of the problem? Why do you stop short? The scam is the selfish slug community, unwilling to use public transportation in favor of a free ride.
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Posted By: N_or_S_bound
Date Posted: 08 Feb 2006 at 12:54pm
All diesels can burn biodiesel. Rode in this morn in a Jetta TDI. Gets 50mpg (sound familiar?). Doesn't qualify for CF plates.
All cars can burn a mix of 85% petro/15% ethanol, but it's only distributed in select cities that have mandated it's usage. Why not nationally? Because we don't have a domestic energy policy to support our international policies.
Many auto manufacturers already sell popular models that run on ethanol. Sold mostly as fleet vehicles. Costs about $4k more per vehicle. Better than the gas/elec combo that has a lot more cost to it than that.
NoSb
SOV because you can, HOV because you care!
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Posted By: n/a
Date Posted: 08 Feb 2006 at 2:15pm
Finally, some sense: YES NoSUV, I agree that public transportation is a solution to the problem of traffic congestion and foriegn fuel dependency, but how do you think the electricity used to run METRO is made? Try coal-fired power plants (still a fossil fuel). But mass transit is still a viable step in the right direction.
Now if we could address the cost issues: METRO prices have become cost prohibitive. I figure my monthly METRO fare and parking expenses at about $229., or $2748. per year, unsubsidized! Hmmmmm, would I rather pay metro fares, or would I rather put my kids through college? Although I agree that mass transit is a viable solution, it has become way too expensive for me to consider it as an option. Besides, I have made some good friends slugging!
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Posted By: n/a
Date Posted: 08 Feb 2006 at 2:21pm
Great info. NoSb! Have you heard about Willie Nelson's crusade to promote biodiesel? If I could find the stuff reliably, I would buy a diesel and use it. I understand the exhaust smells like french fries! Unfortunately, its not widely distributed...
The big fuel companies will not allow it to happen until, 1.) they have established a per unit cost for fuel that guarantees profitability, 2.) they have established a regulatory environment that will stabilize the world market for bio-fuel, and 3.) they own all the farms. I believe this will happen.
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Posted By: sluDgE
Date Posted: 08 Feb 2006 at 5:26pm
Ray,
Saw the same segment on the evening news the other day.
Good publicity for ole Willie. But the reporter did say that Willie's fuel is 10% bio and 90% regular diesel, and it costs about $0.10 more per gallon than regular diesel. Didn't say anything about improving or decreasing MPG. At least it puts some of the money in US farmers' pockets. [8D]
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Posted By: Wagonman
Date Posted: 08 Feb 2006 at 7:26pm
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Do we have any lawyers here that would like to help get rid of about half if not all the hybrids in the HOV? Hybrids don't meet the definition of clean fuel vehicle in the state code and a challenge would be intersting to see. The decision of DMV to issue a clean fuel plate to a hybrid is appealable in a Circuit Court. I'd like to see DMV defend themselves and their logic in court. Especially when it comes to the hybrids that have poor emissions ratings. Filing fees for an appeal can't be that expensive.
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Posted By: Bob
Date Posted: 09 Feb 2006 at 8:38am
Just wanted to mention that in the Virginia House yesterday, the one year hybrid extension passed the Transportation Committee. So it looks like the one yr extension will be voted on (and no doubt pass).
The bill is HB1248 which originally ended the sunset provision, but has now been modified with a 2007 date, same as the Senate Bill. To see the text of the bill click under "Full Text" 2/08/06
http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?ses=061&typ=bil&val=hb1248&Submit=Go
Lets fire up those keyboards folks.
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Posted By: Luddite
Date Posted: 09 Feb 2006 at 9:16am
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Anyone know how our delegates voted? Specifically McQuigg.
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Posted By: Luddite
Date Posted: 09 Feb 2006 at 9:22am
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The big vote for this is tomorrow. McQuigg has not yet taken a stand and will be sending a mass email today to constituents to get feedback. Really the time to call is today.
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Posted By: Quagmire
Date Posted: 09 Feb 2006 at 5:22pm
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I vote we have volunteer drivers drive into a wall. Giggity!
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Posted By: Bob
Date Posted: 23 Feb 2006 at 8:21am
from Freelance Star Feb 23 2006:
Extending HOV privileges for hybrid cars hurts slugs
February 23, 2006 12:50 am
Thank you for the coverage of the House of Delegates' vote to extend hybrid vehicle privileges on the I-95/395 HOV lanes [Hybrids still OK in HOV--for now, Feb. 15]. This and the earlier Senate vote demonstrate that improving regional transit is not a priority for our legislators.
The slug system is the most efficient transit program on the I-95/395 corridor. It transports 12,000-15,000 commuters at no cost and saves participants at least 40-60 minutes each way.
The slug system is faster and more reliable and carries more than twice the volume of the VRE Fredericksburg line.
These 15,000 commuters use the HOV to its greatest capacity. No governmental involvement, no commissions, no special licenses.
They don't buy tickets; they don't get a tax break or a voucher. An offer, a smile and a mutual destination, and all do well by doing good.
The slug movement is the most successful grass-roots action in Virginia's recent history.
Since 2001, the commute for slugs has slowed. This has been due to the addition of single-rider hybrids in the HOV lanes.
Slug riders and drivers have accepted this with the certainty that July 2006 would be the end of hybrid exceptions.
However, at the urging of the Virginia Auto Dealers Association, delegates and senators will extend the exception and allow these losses to worsen.
Affluent hybrid owners pay (and are repaid through tax credits) to avoid doing the right thing.
With the exception of Mark Cole, no delegate or senator is interested in moving people.
Money talks. Freight and cars have priority over people and will continue to do so unless we do something about it. The HOT lanes will be the next step in crushing the slug movement.
I urge all of us who benefit from slugs to contact our representatives and tell them the July 2006 date is what they promised. They should keep their word.
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Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 23 Feb 2006 at 1:21pm
quote:
Originally posted by Bob
[br]from Freelance Star Feb 23 2006:
Extending HOV privileges for hybrid cars hurts slugs
February 23, 2006 12:50 am
...
These 15,000 commuters use the HOV to its greatest capacity. No governmental involvement, no commissions, no special licenses.
...
Since 2001, the commute for slugs has slowed. This has been due to the addition of single-rider hybrids in the HOV lanes.
...
However, at the urging of the Virginia Auto Dealers Association, delegates and senators will extend the exception and allow these losses to worsen.
...
Affluent hybrid owners pay (and are repaid through tax credits) to avoid doing the right thing.
...
Money talks. Freight and cars have priority over people and will continue to do so unless we do something about it. The HOT lanes will be the next step in crushing the slug movement.
...
My goodness - so many errors of fact in one place!
There most certainly IS government involvement! Is it HOV-2, 3, or 4? Is it HOV at all? It used to be only for buses. Yes, there is government involvement.
The commute has slowed not just for slugs, but for everyone in the region. This is due to the population growth. How many roads have been added in the last 5 years to accommodate the population increase of 1/4 million people? Zero!
Hybrid owners do not receive financial compensation equal to the increase in cost of the vehicle. If that were true, no one with any sense (including slugs) would buy anything else. More than anyone who buys a non-hybrid vehicle, hybrid owners are doing the right thing.
Um, what do people think freight and cars are for? Horses? Of course they are for people. It is fairly ignorant to say that freight and cars have priority over people.
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Posted By: Luddite
Date Posted: 23 Feb 2006 at 1:52pm
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Look. People who buy hybrids in this area buy them only to ride HOV lanes without having two additional riders. Everyone knows this. Why cant hybrid owners just admit it? SOV Hybrids and violators will always be reviled by those of us who travel HOV3. Enough already with the phoney justifications.
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Posted By: sluDgE
Date Posted: 23 Feb 2006 at 3:16pm
Ludd,
Disagree ... two of my neigbors have bought hybrids in the past year or two and neither of them goes near the HOV lanes each day on their way to and from work. One goes from Burke to the Tysons Corner area via Braddock Rd and the Beltway, and the other drives from Burke on the Fairfax County Parkway to their workplace near Dulles Airport. I'm sure there are many other commuters who bought hybrids for gas mileage reasons and they never or seldom go near an HOV lane when they commute.
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Posted By: MDC
Date Posted: 23 Feb 2006 at 11:20pm
sluDgE,
How do you explain why the 10th most populous state in the country has the second most amount of hybrids? All of the environmentalists here? California is the only state ahead of Virginia in number of hybrids on the road and it has five times our population.
Of course there are people that buy hybrids for reasons other than HOV, but don't disagree with someone stating an obvious truth for 95%+ of the hybrid buyers. It makes you look silly.
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Posted By: Luddite
Date Posted: 24 Feb 2006 at 10:25am
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Thanks MDC for understanding this absurd hypocracy. However, try 97-98%.
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Posted By: Sparky
Date Posted: 24 Feb 2006 at 4:08pm
quote:
Originally posted by NoSUV
[br]quote:
Originally posted by raymond
[br]Bottom line is that ANY single occupant, fossil fuel vehicle is part of the problem, not part of the solution. ... Until then, hybrids are a scam, and SOV hybrids do not belong in the HOV lanes.
Why isn't the bottom line that ANY non-public transportation solution for commuting is part of the problem? Why do you stop short? The scam is the selfish slug community, unwilling to use public transportation in favor of a free ride.
I think you hit the nail on the head. I'm a former slugger, public transportation user and a current hybrid owner; the only reason I do not pick up slugs is because I commute from Arlington to Silver Spring--I have gone through Commuter Connections for three years straight with no success in finding people to pick up or to ride with. Stopping to drop people off in DC will not work for me; I take the Beltway in to Montgomery County, and would be late for work. There is no established pick up point in Arlington that I know of, for that matter. To avoid causing congestion in the HOV lanes, I go into work on a later schedule, which means that HOV is over by the time I hit 395 to return home.
No one here seems to be considering the needs of those with suburb-to-suburb commutes.
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Posted By: mroyal
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2006 at 9:52am
quote:
Originally posted by MDC
[br]Luddite,
You're wrong in your assessment. SOV hybrids don't deal with parking, slug lines, drop-offs, or any of the normal carpool or slug activites. They can save 10, 20, or more minutes each way by taking the shortest route and not dealing with any of that. Even under optimal slugging conditions with no waiting in line, you'll never have as short a commute as the SOV hybrids.
So why would any hybrid driver, in their right mind, even consider picking up slugs? For the good of mankind? Yea, right. Does that make them selfish? Take another look at the regular lanes filled with people who have no choice but to drive SOV, you selfish HOV driver/passenger. There is no slug line to Tysons Corner.
As I said over a year ago. We are all just looking for the most efficient and economical way of commuting.
I do agree with your point that those of us who bought hybrids (mine is a 2003)knew it would probably expire in 2006. Anything beyound that is just a bonus.
(as you know, but others may not, I'm an AM slugger - wife drives the hybrid SOV inbound and with me as passenger outbound)
Kindest Regards,
mroyal
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Posted By: Sparky
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2006 at 11:32am
quote:
Originally posted by mroyal
[br]quote:
Originally posted by MDC
[br]Luddite,
You're wrong in your assessment. SOV hybrids don't deal with parking, slug lines, drop-offs, or any of the normal carpool or slug activites. They can save 10, 20, or more minutes each way by taking the shortest route and not dealing with any of that. Even under optimal slugging conditions with no waiting in line, you'll never have as short a commute as the SOV hybrids.
So why would any hybrid driver, in their right mind, even consider picking up slugs? For the good of mankind? Yea, right. Does that make them selfish? Take another look at the regular lanes filled with people who have no choice but to drive SOV, you selfish HOV driver/passenger. There is no slug line to Tysons Corner.
As I said over a year ago. We are all just looking for the most efficient and economical way of commuting.
I do agree with your point that those of us who bought hybrids (mine is a 2003)knew it would probably expire in 2006. Anything beyound that is just a bonus.
(as you know, but others may not, I'm an AM slugger - wife drives the hybrid SOV inbound and with me as passenger outbound)
Kindest Regards,
mroyal
Thank you for stating this. I bought my hybrid because I care about gas mileage and the environment, and not principally for the HOV benefit. BTW, here's another incentive, the latest report by Consumer Reports, that places the Prius squarely in the "reliable" category:
Toyota Prius
For the third year, this $23,000 gasoline/electric hybrid is our pick, thanks to its excellent 44-mpg overall fuel economy. It is certified by the California Air Resources Board as a near-zero-emission vehicle. With a roomy interior, reasonable performance, and the versatility of a hatchback, the Prius is a good alternative to a midsized sedan.
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Posted By: Luddite
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2006 at 1:59pm
Sparky,
"Not principally for the HOV benefit." Right. Give it a rest already. We (HOV3) don't believe it.
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Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2006 at 3:36pm
quote:
Originally posted by Luddite
[br]Sparky,
"Not principally for the HOV benefit." Right. Give it a rest already. We (HOV3) don't believe it.
Ah, yes - but the rest of the world does! Is ignorance really bliss?
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Posted By: Sparky
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2006 at 7:11pm
quote:
Originally posted by Luddite
[br]Sparky,
"Not principally for the HOV benefit." Right. Give it a rest already. We (HOV3) don't believe it.
I doubt you speak for the whole world. Please read my first post again. I doubt that you read it in the first place. We bought the car because I have a 60 mile, round trip commute (to another suburb) and we wanted to save money on gas.
And, as for incentives, you're conveniently forgetting about the income tax breaks...I lot of people bought the car to get them. (BTW, we bought ours USED, so we didn't get it).
Again, I ask, why don't you move closer to your job?
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Posted By: Beckie5
Date Posted: 03 Mar 2006 at 4:13pm
The voters HAVE voted. Unlike California, where elected representatives abdicate their responsibilities, we voted for people and empowered them to represent our opinions. I polled all of the candidates asking for my vote on the hybrid exemption and intended to use that as a criteria for my vote. It didn't help since every one of them supported extention.
Mr. No SUV:
It appears that our elected officials do not vote as they should and as representatives to us. They vote for what makes them popular and for what they feel peronally. What at one time took me 45 minutes to get from Stafford to the Pentagon in the morning is now taking 1 hour to 1 and a half hours with three in the car. There is NO WAY that 20 (single rider) Hybrids during my 1 hour plus ride to the Penatgon is saving that much fuel! If you would ride together or with others and leave your hybrids home the 20 cars would be limited to 6, and that is what really saves fuel!
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Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 06 Mar 2006 at 12:50pm
quote:
Originally posted by Beckie5
[br]The voters HAVE voted. Unlike California, where elected representatives abdicate their responsibilities, we voted for people and empowered them to represent our opinions. I polled all of the candidates asking for my vote on the hybrid exemption and intended to use that as a criteria for my vote. It didn't help since every one of them supported extention.
Mr. No SUV:
It appears that our elected officials do not vote as they should and as representatives to us. They vote for what makes them popular and for what they feel peronally. What at one time took me 45 minutes to get from Stafford to the Pentagon in the morning is now taking 1 hour to 1 and a half hours with three in the car. There is NO WAY that 20 (single rider) Hybrids during my 1 hour plus ride to the Penatgon is saving that much fuel! If you would ride together or with others and leave your hybrids home the 20 cars would be limited to 6, and that is what really saves fuel!
Beckie5, Um, how can you credibly say that? Believe it or not, polls consistently show that with the exception of a small minority, most people in the state favor the hybrid exemption. And, voting for what makes them popular is EXACTLY what they are supposed to do!
Have you looked at the population statistics for your area? Has the number of commuters increased from your previous 45 min commute? Were you before going well above the speed limit and now forced to go at the speed limit?
Why haven't YOU bought a CF vehicle? The answer I get from most is identical to the reason I only have 1 - they cost too much. Yet with the dual global problems of climate warming and dwindling fuel resources, too few of us are leaving a good legacy for future generations. An incentive to spend that extra money is obviously needed, not just for me, but for you - yes, Beckie, specifically you.
Probably the best incentive for you to spend that money is if the only traffic allowed in the express lanes were buses and HOV hybrids.
Next best is either conventional HOV (which does nothing to help with the major global problems when those vehicles are not being used for commuting) or SOV hybrids (which may be less efficient than some HOV conventional vehicles during commuting only, but are the clear choice when not being used for commuting). Neither has a clear advantage, unless you are a hybrid hating slug. Throw into the mix that express lanes are still far faster and more free flowing than the regular lanes during commuting hours, and SOV hybrids become not only politically expedient, but a better choice than conventional vehicles only being HOV during the hours of commuting.
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Posted By: Bob
Date Posted: 07 Mar 2006 at 8:21am
Hybrid exemption details re Free Lance Star March 7
http://www.fredericksburg.com/News/FLS/2006/032006/03072006/173405
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Posted By: N_or_S_bound
Date Posted: 09 Mar 2006 at 10:49am
Sparky,
You've used the CR reliability quote in a couple dif posts. Challenge is: there's insufficient data to indicate cost-effective life of the Prius.
I agree to a point, Toyota makes a very reliable vehicle in almost every case. (They're not very forthright in admitting when they fail though)
So, suggest you find a better data point to support EF of hybrids than current (e.g. new) limited data samples.
NoSb
SOV because you can, HOV because you care!
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Posted By: Sparky
Date Posted: 11 Mar 2006 at 8:21pm
quote:
Originally posted by N_or_S_bound
[br]Sparky,
You've used the CR reliability quote in a couple dif posts. Challenge is: there's insufficient data to indicate cost-effective life of the Prius.
I agree to a point, Toyota makes a very reliable vehicle in almost every case. (They're not very forthright in admitting when they fail though)
So, suggest you find a better data point to support EF of hybrids than current (e.g. new) limited data samples.
NoSb
SOV because you can, HOV because you care!
Nice point, but reliablity data is limited because the car has not been out that long. I plan to keep the car for 10 years, so I'll let you know.[:D] On the other hand, as you have pointed out, Toyota makes a very reliable vehicle.
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Posted By: N_or_S_bound
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2006 at 7:37am
IF I were to buy a hybrid, it would be a 'yota...definitely not a Ford. Honda's ok, just the hybrid there "feels cheap" compared to the Prius.
imoo
NoSb
SOV because you can, HOV because you care!
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Posted By: Bob
Date Posted: 31 Mar 2006 at 8:48am
letter in Fredericksburg newspaper. Right ON!
Once again the General Assembly has extended the law allowing hybrid vehicles to use HOV lanes regardless of the number of occupants [Legislators extend hybrid HOV break, but cut off car registration, March 12].
Hybrids are a great advancement, and I hope this trend of improving fuel economy and helping the environment continues.
I just do not support hybrids being allowed in the HOV lanes.
HOV lanes were developed to minimize commuter vehicles by promoting carpooling, while also improving fuel efficiency and reducing pollution.
Allowing low-occupant hybrid vehicles in these lanes defeats the purpose of HOV lanes.
Instead, it motivates individuals to be selfish and simply pay extra to avoid the hassle of carpooling (as HOT lanes would do)--hence the reason hybrids have more than doubled in the past 18 months.
Nearly every hybrid in the HOV lanes is driver-only.
Hybrid owners argue they should get this privilege because their vehicles get better fuel efficiency or are "clean."
A driver-only hybrid may get 50 mpg, but the average nonhybrid vehicle gets about 30 mpg.
Considering that nonhybrid vehicles transport three or more passengers, their real fuel efficiency is equivalent to 90 mpg.
Also, while hybrids may run cleaner, the additional cars in HOV lanes are slowing all traffic and causing more pollution from nonhybrids.
Allowing hybrids also represents discrimination against lower income people who cannot afford hybrids. The government already gives a $2,000 tax credit for hybrid owners that is benefit enough.
One last hope is the Federal Highway Administration. Last year it threatened to take away highway funds if hybrids were not excluded from HOV lanes.
If Virginia cannot act in the best interest of the majority of its citizens, maybe the FHA can do the right thing.
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Posted By: N_or_S_bound
Date Posted: 31 Mar 2006 at 9:16am
Wouldn't it be nice (sounds like the words to a song) if hybrids carried a total of 3 (or even better 4) people. That would equate to 150-200 mpg!
Talk about a "clean" car...still not "clean", but definitely a step towards reducing much of the downside to fossil fuels.
NoSb
SOV because you can, HOV because you care!
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Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 31 Mar 2006 at 12:04pm
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Bob - so it seems logical that you also favor excluding motorcycles from the express lanes during HOV hours. True?
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Posted By: N_or_S_bound
Date Posted: 31 Mar 2006 at 1:00pm
Just for the record: I favor excluding ALL SOVs from the HOV lanes.
Yes, that includes motorcycles. The physics are somewhat altered, but they should act and be afforded the space of any other vehicle.
NoSb
SOV because you can, HOV because you care!
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