HOT Lanes Discussion - Wake Up People! HOT lanes

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Wake Up People! HOT lanes

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Forum Name: HOT Lanes Discussion
Forum Description: Post messages regarding High Occupancy Toll (HOT) lanes here.
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Topic: Wake Up People! HOT lanes

Posted By: Peter Frank
Subject: Wake Up People! HOT lanes
Date Posted: 12 Oct 2005 at 10:49am

Last night HOT Lanes meeting in Fairfax was fascinating. Where was everyone!? I�m not just talking about the sluggers � No � I�m talking about the single drivers too. These proposals affect (and will effect) 56 miles of road from the DC line down to wherever. This is not building a useless parking lot at the corner of 123 and 95 that nobody uses and so your response is �Well I guess VDOT screwed up again.� No � this is going to have a direct impact not only on our commutes but on the price of real estate in the region. These presentations given last night should have been given at Garfield High school in the gym on a Saturday morning for the public to view and question. We are spending $1 Billion dollars. This project is so huge that it should be a ballot initiative for the voters in the area affected by it to vote on.

NOVEMBER 1ST TUESDAY IS THE FINAL MEETING IN SPRINGFIELD SOMEWHERE FOR THE ADVISORY BOARD TO MAKE ITS RECOMMENDATION TO VDOT ON THE PROPOSALS. BE THERE!!

Replies:

Posted By: Sheepish
Date Posted: 12 Oct 2005 at 6:22pm

Did you attend the meeting back in September in Prince William County? The only one where public comments were made? I did. And I thought the very same question... where was everyone?!

I still believe the general public that travels up and down the 395/95 corridor haven't a clue as to how HOT will impact them. I'm talking about all the people that utilize the lanes in the evenings and on the weekends..... any time at all during non-rush hour times when HOV is not in effect. (and yes, that includes me too) Does the general public realize that they will have to pay to travel on these lanes if HOT becomes a reality? Of course you never hear the media point that out--- they only discuss it in terms of rush hour useage.

Posted By: Peter Frank
Date Posted: 12 Oct 2005 at 9:21pm

After last night presentation of HOT lane management I am here to tell you this is not just a Monday to Friday commuter problem. It affects all of us down the I-95 Corridor �V 56 miles worth of lanes.

Here��s the deal.
�� VDOT has two proposals from the private sector it is considering.
�� The bottom line of both has the company manage (operate and maintain) the HOV lanes currently in existence while building new HOT lanes too.
�� These lanes would be active 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.
�� HOV-3 is Free.
�� Non HOV-3 pays toll via a transponder.
�� The toll fees will change depending on the volume of use and the time of the day.
�� The 56 miles of road will be broken down into either 3 or 2 segments depending on the vendor but these details were very vague at the October 11th meeting.
�� The Commonwealth Transportation Board does have the ability to raise the HOV-3 to HOV-4.
�� Access to the lanes will stop if performance on the lanes falls below a certain point.

One point among many to make clear is this �V If there is an accident in the regular lanes the HOT lanes will not open up for free. Usage will pick up and as demand picks up so does the toll. The vendors were asked about a major accident that would shut down the regular lanes and the vendors said they could discuss that issue in the final contract.

Points of concern and unanswered questions with the HOT lanes from the October 11 meeting.

�� Are the HOT lanes in effect 24/7? �V 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.
�� Is HOV-3 free only during the HOV hours? M-F 6-9 AM in the morning and 3:30 to 6 PM in the evenings.
�� Will HOV-3 Free extend past the current Rt 234 HOV lanes? IE �V down to Stafford and Spotsylvania
�� What is the maximum toll in any given segment before the lanes are shut down to access?
�� What is the minimum toll one could expect to pay for the entire trip of 56 miles in a morning commute?
�� What is the maximum toll one could expect to pay for the entire trip of 56 miles in a morning commute?
�� Will the variable pricing only be in affect during rush hour or will it be in affect on weekends too? E.g. Summer Saturdays.
�� How are the profits split between the vendor and Virginia? Does the revenue stay in Northern Virginia?
�� Will the current HOV lanes be a toll road on Saturday, Sunday, holidays and week nights? IE �V Will the current HOV lanes always be toll lanes outside of the HOV-3 free M-F hours? Will the current HOV lanes always (24/7) be a toll lane for single and double riders.

If yes, considerations for citizens:
�� Driving to the DCA airport �V Toll
�� Saturday summer traffic �V toll
�� Will EZ pass work on these roads? Major US corridor especially in the summer?
�� Currently the HOV lanes relieve some congestion on weekends for the regular lanes traveling in the same direction of the HOV lanes. This relief will be gone or at least folks will be paying a toll to use the HOV lane.

"THERE ONCE WAS A DREAM THAT WAS ROME - THIS IS NOT IT!" - GLADIATOR

Posted By: SpongeBob
Date Posted: 19 Oct 2005 at 1:37pm

Peter, this is SpongeBob -- I think you know me...

I can answer some of your questions...

Are the HOT lanes in effect 24/7? �V 24 hours a day, 7 days a week?
YES

Is HOV-3 free only during the HOV hours? M-F 6-9 AM in the morning and 3:30 to 6 PM in the evenings?
NO, the promise [;)] is free all the time.

Will HOV-3 Free extend past the current Rt 234 HOV lanes? IE �V down to Stafford and Spotsylvania?
YES, if you believe it will be free....

What is the maximum toll in any given segment before the lanes are shut down to access?
There is no maximum; it will be driven as high as necessary to ensure free flow. Thus my comment that these are Limo Lanes.

What is the minimum toll one could expect to pay for the entire trip of 56 miles in a morning commute?
If it was $.30/mile, the lowest per-mile amount mentioned, then a 30 mile trip is going to be $9 a day, $90 a week.

What is the maximum toll one could expect to pay for the entire trip of 56 miles in a morning commute?
The numbers are fuzzy, but MWCOG says about $40 one way is "likely."

Will the variable pricing only be in affect during rush hour or will it be in affect on weekends too? E.g. Summer Saturdays.
All the time.

How are the profits split between the vendor and Virginia? Does the revenue stay in Northern Virginia?
Not answered in the proposals. (But really, what, are you kidding?)

Will the current HOV lanes be a toll road on Saturday, Sunday, holidays and week nights?
YES!

IE Will the current HOV lanes always be toll lanes outside of the HOV-3 free M-F hours?
YOU BET!

Will the current HOV lanes always (24/7) be a toll lane for single and double riders?
Yep! And motorcycles and large trucks will be prohibited.

What a great deal for us, huh?

Posted By: Bob
Date Posted: 19 Oct 2005 at 5:39pm

And I have a couple of questions on it if anyone knows the answers

Once a car enters the HOT lane and it shows a toll, is that the toll he pays all the way until the end or until he exits? I'll bet 75 percent of the cars entering the HOT lane will do so around Dale City/Woodbridge. This is what I mean about dynamic tolling not going to work because everyone will be in the HOT lane with their rate already fixed.

If one enters the HOT at a high toll rate such as 1.00 per mile, can one then take the next exit and re-enter at a lower rate? I expect this would be true, but couldnt it cause a lot of exiting an re-entering?

Posted By: SpongeBob
Date Posted: 20 Oct 2005 at 9:00am

No, Bob, dynamic tolling means from toll gantry to toll gantry. You will be charged a variable fee as you move through the system. You get on at Woodbridge and it is $1.00 per mile until you get near the Beltway, where another gantry begins charging you, say, $1.75 per mile. That rate lasts until you get to the Duke Street gantry where it jumps to $4.00 per mile from there to the river.

This is how they intend to manipulate the flow. The rate has to be adjusted in mid-flow to FORCE you OFF the lanes, creating space for those who can afford the rate. Sorry if you are too poor to pay the freight, but, as others on here have said, Get a Better Job!

(Schoolteachers, firemen, and social workers need not worry about the toll rates: they won't qualify for the Limo Lanes anyway.)

Posted By: commuter
Date Posted: 23 Oct 2005 at 5:08pm

Has anyone seen this about Transurban, one of the teams competing for the HOT lanes project? It shows how they paid the Australian government to get out of certain contract provisions. I wonder if they might try that here in Virginia?

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2002/02/20/1013132446302.html

City Link $10m bid on contract
By GABRIELLE COSTA and ANDREW HEASLEY
September 20 2001

The owner of Melbourne's City Link tollway will pay the Victorian Government $10 million in an unprecedented deal to secure a change in its contract with the state.

In return for the payment, the government will legislate to allow Transurban to develop and sell its automatic tolling technology interstate and overseas.

The legislation will remove legal restrictions that ban Transurban from activities other than building and operating City Link.

The government unsuccessfully sought lower tolls for motorists as part of the new arrangements, but had to settle for a $10million consideration, payable in three roughly equal portions over three years.

"We asked for some tolls to be lowered but that's a very expensive exercise to enter into," Transport Minister Peter Batchelor said. "It didn't match up in negotiations."

Posted By: Mr. Bill
Date Posted: 24 Oct 2005 at 12:01pm

I thought there may be some interest in this meeting so I am posting the information here.

[:D]Town Hall Meeting[:D]
When: October 25th, 7:30 pm
Where: Occoquan Town Hall
Guests include:
*Prince William County Police
*Scott Hirons, President, Committee to Save HOV
*Kim Hosen, Occoquan District Planning Commissioner
Topics of Discussion:
*Safety in Prince William County
[:(!]HOT Lanes
*Proposed Developments

Posted By: n/a
Date Posted: 25 Oct 2005 at 1:29pm

SpongeBob, I hope you are wrong about the gate to gate HOT flow management system. It will cause backups in the HOT lanes from discharging traffic as it hits the slow traffic in non-HOT lanes.

Posted By: Bob
Date Posted: 25 Oct 2005 at 1:54pm

I am 70 percent sure that I saw a statement in one of the proposals at least that said that they were going to structure it so that once you got on the HOT lane, you kept the same per mile rate until you left it. The toll rate electronic signs would be at the HOT entrances. From a common sense perspective, if one were driving along in the HOT lane and could watch the rates change dynamically, that could create a mass panic to exit the lanes. Dont think they would do that.

Bob

Posted By: SpongeBob
Date Posted: 25 Oct 2005 at 4:42pm

No Bob, I'm 100% sure that it is a variable rate. Think about it: no one could be forced off the lanes once on; they would automatically clog. The whole dang thing relies on variable, i.e., dynamic, tolling which forces people off the toll roads as the per-mile rate rises. It absolutely has to change in each section, otherwise the system would have to keep track of each car's journey. With dynamic tolling, the system only has to charge every car that passes under the gantry the same amount -- it presumes, indeed it knows, that every car passing under it traveled X miles from the last entrance. The gantries and the tolling are linked to the distances from the entrances. As you travel through each section, you are charged the prevailing rate for that section. Which can change based on the amount of congestion.

Your suspicion that a single rate is unfair is why they are setting the system up with multiple gantries. There actually won't be a gantry at the entrance. There will be a gantry just BEFORE each entrance, charging a toll for the road you drove over since the previous gantry/entrance pair.

The sequence, since I'm being as clear as usual... is get on at an entrance, drive 3 (or 4 or 5) miles, then pass under a gantry that charges your Smartcard, say, $1.00 for 3 miles. Immediately after going under the gantry, there will be the next entrance to the toll road. Repeat. Exits can be positioned anywhere in the system, and likewise only have to charge for the distance from the last entrance. They do not need to calculate the whole trip, just the last section.

Posted By: Bob
Date Posted: 29 Oct 2005 at 9:10am

Good editorial on Belway and 95 HOT. Bob

http://www.potomacnews.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=WPN%2FMGArticle%2FWPN_BasicArticle&c=MGArticle&cid=1128767809566&path=!news!opinion

Posted By: keith770
Date Posted: 30 Oct 2005 at 12:15pm

I think it is quite clear HOT as it stands will kill slugging, but to me there are primary considerations:

Goals:

Reduce waste of gasoline
reduce generation of air pollution
reduce waste of human time

To this point
1 HOV-3 (at least) ONLY must exist as they were
2 The primary force that I see driving people out farther is HOUSING cost. I could not afford a 300K house or a 200K house or even a 150K house (Search:June 2004 to October 2004). I had to go out to Ruther Glen to stay in our cost bracket. This was OUR consideration for where we would live. We HATE the 4 hours a day I need to commute, but even in Fredericksburg there is no room for families with one wage earner to live. The last I saw, prices are soaring to to new elevations at around 350K for a single family home with 2 or 3 bedrooms. Perhaps my family of 5 could live in an efficiency with 100 square feet, but I suspect at that point, we would move to a more FAMILY friendly area.

Under our FAMILY friendly administration (NOT) planning needs to include a way to help families to stay within a normal rather than an extreme commute
3 HOV 4 should be reconsidered (this would HELP slugging)
4 enforcement need to be increased with a recorded 20% violation
5 Why not use the funds for violation to extend the HOV
6 I like the idea of efficient vehicles in general, but they need to share as well. How about an HOV-2 phase in (or is this too complcated for the police force)?
7 I could not xcare less if the express lanes are toll at any other time. Just not toll during commute and no NON-HOV at any price during that time. Rich or well off people have a moral responsibility to help manage our world without trashing it as well.

Posted By: n/a
Date Posted: 31 Oct 2005 at 2:09pm

Hi Keith, welcome to the forum!

Please review the many, many messges dedicated to this topic for in-depth discussions on each of your concerns. Needless to say that HOT will have a negative impact on slugging and commuting in general. The needs of the general commuting public, however, are not the primary concern of those who are in power to make decisions regarding the future of HOT, its nothing more than another source of taxation and revenue.

Posted By: Peter Frank
Date Posted: 01 Nov 2005 at 8:26am

Tonight we get to hear how the advisory board will advise. Hope to see you there at 7 PM.

November 1, 2005 - 7pm - 9:30pm
Springfield Interchange Project Office
6400 Commerce Street, Springfield

Posted By: SpongeBob
Date Posted: 01 Nov 2005 at 11:20am

Bob: You were half right... turns out that Clark/Shirley's proposal does not use dynamic pricing, but one-time pricing. A total disaster, of course. Here is the relevent discussion from the 10/11 meeting:

"Harf � Would travelers rates change over the length of the trip?
Fluor � Yes. Changes would have to be posted in advance of tolls
in order for traveler to make informed decision to pay toll or
move to GP lanes.
Clark/Shirley � Travelers would know in advance the toll rate
and won�t change for the entire trip."

Ridiculous to allow Alexandria drivers to pay $.30 a mile, the same as Fredericksburg drivers, to access the toll road -- the northern end of the toll road will totally clog with drivers willing to pay $1 to go from Duke to the Pentagon at speed.

If I thought Clark was going to win, I'd actually be concerned about this.

Posted By: Bob
Date Posted: 01 Nov 2005 at 11:55am

Sponge,

Thanks for looking this up. I have put a lot of thought into this and I think I understand a little more. The thing is so complex it is difficult to get a handle on even the terminology. But when, for example Clark says that the toll will not change, I think what they mean is that when you get on in Fredericksburg (in 2020 or whenever) you will have a sign that says toll to Pentagon $22. That is what they mean when they say it is fixed. The trip cost to the Pentagon will be fixed, but it will consist of 20? different segments, each of which has its own toll rate. So when you enter at Fredericksburg, the computer freezes all the segments ahead. This means that you could be paying less than the guy next to you. That is what they mean with fixed.

Posted By: Bob
Date Posted: 01 Nov 2005 at 12:48pm

Here is a link for the Minneapolis system that is apparently the only thing comparable to what is being proposed here. The San Diego system has just one entrance and one exit Take a look at the text below also (pertaining to Minneapolis)

http://www.tollroadsnews.com/cgi-bin/a.cgi/wZbzgpEaEdmcEIJ61nsxIA

Tolls for the full length of the toll lanes will vary between 50c and $8.00 depending on what rate is needed to keep traffic in the lanes to levels which allow free flow to be maintained. Occupancy approaching congestion levels in just one link will trigger toll rate increases in all links with a lag to ensure people already in the network are not tolled higher than the rate they saw on the message sign when they entered. And when the most congested link experiences lower occupancy, all toll rates will fall. RFID equipment will be mounted on gantries just downstream of the entry/exit points. Enforcement for the moment will be by cops in cruisers alerted to a vehicle without a transponder by a light near the toll point. The cops will have portable readers.

Posted By: Bob
Date Posted: 02 Nov 2005 at 1:42pm

I cannot believe that Northern Virginia commuters that use this HOV system are going to just sit back and let this happen. This is flat out going to ruin the most successful HOV corridor in the country. I would venture a guess that 95 percent of politicians and journalists have not even spent five minutes looking at what is actually being proposed here. Wake up! There is not enough spare capacity on this road for toll vehicles NOW, much less in 10 or 20 years. We are being taken for a ride, big time. HOT conversions of successful HOV systems should be illegal under federal law since these are interstates. HOT conversions are totally different from HOT new-builds.

Posted By: SpongeBob
Date Posted: 02 Nov 2005 at 4:00pm

Forever Free don't mean squat. When the big money boys from NYC come to town to sign the contract, they'll have a new little addendum: to wit, should the revenue turn out to be less-than-X, then the state will repeal or alter the HOV requirement.

I don't understand why we don't just push for the obvious thing?

Why is everyone so unable to see that we only need to insist on Free HOV during the existing hours? In other words, tolls for everyone, including HOV, during non-rush-hours. During rush hours, the lanes are only available for HOV-3 (or -4)

Think: nothing changes for the ride-sharing communities, and the lost revenue is made up by charging HOV's during non-rush-hours. Right now, HOV will be free (supposedly) every minute of every day. Why not let them toll EVERY vehicle EXCEPT during rush-hour?

Posted By: Bob
Date Posted: 11 Nov 2005 at 7:57am

Letter on main op-ed page of Post today: Great!

Going the Wrong Way

Friday, November 11, 2005; Page A24

The Virginia Department of Transportation is considering a proposal from a private company to abandon the high-occupancy-vehicle lanes on Interstates 95 and 395 in favor of express toll lanes [Metro, Nov. 2].

In recent years, authorities have had little success in improving traffic flow, with one notable exception -- the HOV and bus lanes on I-95 and I-395 in Virginia. They have functioned well for 25 years, moving tens of thousands of people out of their cars and into buses or carpools. These lanes have even created the phenomenon called "slugging," in which drivers pick up passengers in the morning at commuter lots and in the evening around the District to qualify for the three-person requirement of the HOV lanes.

But VDOT would apparently throw this success to the wind by making the high-occupancy toll (HOT) lanes so popular that carpoolers would be squeezed out, even if they could use the lanes for free.

That would not be wise. What about reducing air pollution and conserving fuel? What about providing the incentive of speedier commutes through carpools or buses? What about people who can't afford the tolls? Their taxes support these toll lanes, too. Whatever private company builds and operates the toll lanes also will retain the revenue, so the tolls will not be returned to the state for further road improvement.

The Northern Virginia suburbs are affluent, and many residents may be willing to pay as much as $5 to drive alone in a toll lane -- so many, in fact, that the lanes could clog up and be little faster than the free lanes.

VDOT should look for long-term solutions to congestion that further the use of mass transit, buses and carpools. Meanwhile, it should leave the carpool and bus lanes on I-95 and I-395 alone.

Posted By: scoobydoo
Date Posted: 11 Nov 2005 at 8:57am

The government always tries to get money out of anything americans do. Always trying to tax something.They have to have the money. BASTARDS!

Posted By: omaryak
Date Posted: 27 Nov 2005 at 6:26pm

My issue with the toll option is that there is no way to ensure carpools will be given free access unless a.) there are actual tollbooths to check carpool status, which will slow the commute, or b.) carpools have to register in advance for a special decal, which would defeat the purpose of informal carpooling.

Posted By: CallmeMrSlug
Date Posted: 27 Nov 2005 at 11:58pm

This is a done deal, they will implement HOT, ask questions later, and accede to the contractor when it says it can't count up to three..., and when you ask your politicians, they will decry, we thought they could count to three...

Posted By: n/a
Date Posted: 28 Nov 2005 at 3:16pm

Welcome to the argument JoanA.

It all seems so logical from this POV, the system is a huge success, so why mes with it, right!? But when you consider the POVs of the money hungry politician (who would rather look for new sources of revenue than become accountable for current excessive spending), or the road construction contractor (who couldn't care less about the success of the free HOV lane system), or the wealthy commuter (who would rather pay a toll than pick up a 'dirty slug' and can afford to pay) HOT lanes make sense. Unfortunately, none of these people gives a rats ass about those who the HOV lanes were built to serve; the everyday, middle class, tax paying commuter. Yes, that's you and I. And we are being left in the dust of the politician, contractor and wealthy commuters.

As I said, welcome to the argument!

Posted By: frankiestein
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2005 at 8:37am

We are arguing? I missed it? AHHH!![:(!]

Posted By: hornerslug1
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2005 at 9:48am

Under the HOT system, if you are a driver who picks up slugs, it appears that you would need one transponder indicating that you are HOV-3 and a second transponder when you do not have 3 people in the car. Of course, enforcement would become an even greater problem. The law enforcement "HOT police" couldn't just look for vehicles without 3 in the vehicle because they might just be HOT drivers who are paying their "lexus" tolls. The police would have to target vehicles without transponders or vehicles with HOV transponders without 3 people in the vehicle. Don't ask me how that would be possible. Am I missing something or does this HOT proposal just not make any sense?

hornerslug1

Posted By: frankiestein
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2005 at 10:37am

I'm a tax payer and I still don't like how our Government has control over so much. If we are helping the world..global warming..the enviroment blah blah blah, then why not give the drivers a break and not have to pay the toll? I mean there are still plenty of single drivers that pay the tolls but the carpooling effect is actually helping the enviroment. Is the government just upset that more carpool cars would pass without paying tolls?
GRRR!!!

Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2005 at 11:11am

JoanA: the problem is that there has been tremendous growth in the region over the past several years without a corresponding increase in the ability to transport people. Both the regular lanes and the express lanes have increased in the number of vehicles - but the regular lanes congestion has increased at a greater rate. That's led to complete gridlock in the regular lanes, while the express lanes are still relatively free flowing.

The problem faced by those responsible for transportation policy is how to balance the problem for their constituents - without raising taxes. The best way to do that seems to be to move some of the cars from the regular lanes to the express lanes.

The policy makers did just that with the hybrid exemption. Unfortunately, at the same time, population growth in the region increased exponentially - just compare the population of Stafford County in 2000 with today's (housing prices are another indicator). As a result, the congestion in teh regular lanes did not ease = it increased = and the express lanes also had an increase in congestion.

Yet, the express lanes are still relatively uncongested compared to the regular lanes. The transportation policy makers, to make a quick and tax free fix, rightfully figure that moving more cars from the regular lanes to the express lanes needs to occur. The solution appears to be through a toll.

No one seems to have a better, tax free method for reducing the regular lane congestion. Some have advocated that the congestion should remain - but that costs businesses with lost revenue, pollutes the environment, and needlessly uses up precious fuel. Until or unless we properly fund public transportation, and make it too costly NOT to use it, it's probable that we will have toll roads. The sad part is that slugging delayed the public transportation solution - imagine what the transportation system would look today if slugging had never started. Would we have found a different, and perhaps better, solution?

Posted By: frankiestein
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2005 at 11:27am

Isn't that what city planners get paid for? Growth in communities? Someone is a sleep on the job.

Posted By: HOV3Slug
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2005 at 11:35am

NoSUV,
I-66 doesn�t have slugging. Let�s see, those people live in a freakin� nightmare M-F still. Unless you (i.e, we) go to high-speed rail right up the 95 slugging is the answer, not the problem.

Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2005 at 11:49am

quote:
Originally posted by HOV3Slug
[br]NoSUV,
I-66 doesn�t have slugging. Let�s see, those people live in a freakin� nightmare M-F still. Unless you (i.e, we) go to high-speed rail right up the 95 slugging is the answer, not the problem.

H3S: Why do you suppose that Gov elect Kaine is choosing the I-66 corridor as a transportation focus area? I think it's because it doesn't have slugging - and therefore is a "more deserving" candidate for transportation funding. Again, if slugging had never started, don't you think more attention (and funds) would be diverted to 95/395?

Posted By: HOV3Slug
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2005 at 11:57am

NoSUV,
Your logic is scaring me now.

Posted By: BabblinMan
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2005 at 12:40pm

sadly, for many of us it just isnt that simple. we have trouble getting started, we have trouble keeping the pace and too often we simply give up or our enthusiasm and determination trickle away, like a stream petering out. a lost sheep in the quest for little bopeep

Posted By: BabblinMan
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2005 at 12:57pm

don't yell at me! stop it! your not the boss of me, don't tell me waht to do.
i told you to stop following me
get outta my head! quit it, eat the frog...go get your sister outta the toilet

Posted By: frankiestein
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2005 at 12:59pm

Oh my god! Have I just stepped out of the HOV lane and into the twighlight zone? The heck is all this about? Go away kid!

Posted By: HOV3Slug
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2005 at 1:13pm

quote:
Originally posted by BabblinMan
[br]don't yell at me! stop it! your not the boss of me, don't tell me waht to do.
i told you to stop following me
get outta my head! quit it, eat the frog...go get your sister outta the toilet

Congressman - Keep up the great work!

Posted By: frankiestein
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2005 at 1:33pm

Ok I'm lost. What congressman?
I agree with Joan of arch. What better options would there be if we didn't have slugging? See, we are saving money but the government is losing money in their eyes.

Posted By: dickboyd
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2005 at 2:55pm

quote:
Originally posted by NoSUV
[br]
quote:
Originally posted by HOV3Slug
[br]NoSUV,
I-66 doesn�t have slugging. Let�s see, those people live in a freakin� nightmare M-F still. Unless you (i.e, we) go to high-speed rail right up the 95 slugging is the answer, not the problem.

H3S: Why do you suppose that Gov elect Kaine is choosing the I-66 corridor as a transportation focus area? I think it's because it doesn't have slugging - and therefore is a "more deserving" candidate for transportation funding. Again, if slugging had never started, don't you think more attention (and funds) would be diverted to 95/395?

Dick Boyd's opinion. If slugging had never started, there would be no development on Shirley Highway corridor. Virginia did not want an Interstate in this area. Virginia was concentrating on the Bay Tunnel.

Virginia's involvement with federal goovernment was more with DOD through the Navy in Norfolk, the Marines and FBI at Quantico, the Army at Fort Belvoir. The Pentagon, Coast Guard stations and the like.
My thoughts at the time were that Virginia was afraid of an invasion by Yankees, or worse yet a Marylandization of Virginia. To some the feds were not paying their way, so why encourage more? But that is ancient history. Even those history notes are being rewritten.

For a sanity check, observe how the money that does come to 95/395 is used. Springfield Interchange for instance. Would that money have been better spent on two outer beltways to divert through traffic?

Have you recruited a slug today?

dickboyd@aol.com

Posted By: frankiestein
Date Posted: 07 Dec 2005 at 11:21am

Sorry I lost my train of thought, i was sitting at my desk and the phone started ringing, i didn;t know what to do.

Posted By: Bob
Date Posted: 21 Dec 2005 at 9:44am

Got this from Michele McQuigg re: status of HOT lanes.
Don't look good. Sounds like they basically plan to ignore us. Good timing for the wimps too.. Christmas week.

Bob

I thought you would like to know that VDOT Commissioner Gregory Whilrey
held a press conference this afternoon. Here is information from the
News Release:

"Whirley reached his decision to move forward with the Fluor-Transurban
proposal after an objective review of the PPTA advisory panel's
recommendation and the proposals presented. The panel made its
recommendation in November following a series of meetings and a public
comment period.

Entering into negotiations sets the stage for a possible partnership
between VDOT and the private sector to improve transportation in one of
the most congested areas of the country," said Whirley. "Critical to the
success of this project is that the private sector is willing to share
in the risk of funding the improvement, which otherwise would be
practically impossible if VDOT had to rely on traditional funding sources."

Fluor-Transurban proposed a $913 million project to improve 56 miles of
I-95 from the 14th Street Bridge in the Washington D.C. area to
Massaponax. The key feature includes adding a third lane to the
existing high occupancy vehicle (HOV) lanes on I-95 in Northern
Virginia. These lanes would be HOV and high occupancy toll (HOT)
lanes. The project would extend the HOV/HOT lanes to Massaponax and
provide a seamless connection to the Capital Beltway by way of Phase 8
of the Springfield Interchange.

The project would be financed primarily through tolls. According to the
proposal, a variable toll rate would apply to vehicles carrying fewer
than three people each on HOV/HOT lanes. Carpoolers, buses and other
transit operators would use the lanes for free.

VDOT will first negotiate an interim agreement to require
Fluor-Transurban to complete an in-depth traffic and revenue study. The
study will determine if HOT lanes are economically viable and help to
set a fair and equitable toll structure. The interim agreement also
will require the development of a toll operation and enforcement plan.

Should negotiations be successful and an interim agreement reached, a
comprehensive agreement would follow. The agreement would set the
framework for future project decisions such as design and
construction.

No improvements can be made to the I-95/395 corridor unless they go
through the required state and federal environmental laws and
regulations. Environmental review involves additional public
participation."

Sincerely,
Michele

Posted By: TROLL
Date Posted: 21 Dec 2005 at 10:57am

Who's Michelle?

Posted By: conversantcars
Date Posted: 22 Dec 2005 at 9:44am

Spending $1 billion on more toll-HOT lanes requires funding a loan paid back over 30 years with the toll revenue. Say the new lanes are built and generating revenue by 2015. The payback period extends to 2045. If technology causes less drivers to use the toll-HOT lanes, the lender would lose a lot of money. Or citizens will have to repay the loan some other way.

The toll-obsoleting technology is as close as 2015, and certainly by 2025. Check out http://conversantcars.com. If you want to see a quicker test of the proposed technology then e-mail the Gov at http://www.govmail.ca.gov with subject line, "Transportation Challenge for Conversant Cars."

Posted By: TROLL
Date Posted: 22 Dec 2005 at 11:30am

Great! How do we stop this?

Posted By: goober
Date Posted: 22 Dec 2005 at 4:49pm

Bob,
Thanks for posting that letter from McQuigg. It's no surprise, so how can we "guarantee" that HOV will be free?

Who are the wimps you're referring to in your preamble?

Goober

Posted By: goober
Date Posted: 23 Dec 2005 at 2:10pm

JoanA,

Yes, based on my experience, complaining on this board, attending those meetings, or writing seemed to have had little to no effect. Note that most readers go to the general board and not the HOT Lanes Discussion forum. Even if you try to drum up some noise about HOT, most people don't care.

The politicians care because this is a no brainer decision to go with HOT for the masses (people in the regular lanes, to be more specific). As a politician, you can proudly say that you will be improving the traffic mess because you're adding another lane, extending HOV (?) lanes, and generating revenue. We all know better than that, but a politician needs to cater to people that will get him/her re-elected -- the greater percentage of people in the regular lanes. Also, the decision makers need to ensure that he/she sides with those businesses that might potentially help in the future, you know, those back door deals that leave you scratching your head.

So how can we "guarantee" that HOV will be free?

Goober

Posted By: N_or_S_bound
Date Posted: 23 Dec 2005 at 2:35pm

Goober,

Do you have numbers to compare that more people travel the main lanes than do the express? I heard comparisons years ago and the numbers favored the express lanes. That may not be the case anymore. Would be interested in knowing though.

NoSb

SOV because you can, HOV because you care!

Posted By: goober
Date Posted: 23 Dec 2005 at 3:05pm

NoSb,

I don't have any numbers as to which set of lanes transport more bodies but it would be interesting to know. My reference to "the greater percentage of people in the regular lanes" is to those that would favor HOT vs. those that would oppose HOT. The only reason I can think of as to why drivers in the regular lanes would oppose HOT is that they can't afford it. So, all the rest should side with those decision makers that favor HOT.

Any thoughts on how to guarantee that HOV will be free forever?

Goober

Posted By: Bob
Date Posted: 23 Dec 2005 at 3:49pm

I put a little thought into this. The best I can come up with would be some kind of resolution by the General Assembly that states something like "We are approving HOT for 95, but realize that in the future there could (likely will) arise a major conflict with HOV because of a large number of HOVs and the HOT operators wanting to charge HOVs. We resolve that should this situation arise, NO solution will be granted that will allow the charging of tolls to HOV3 (or 4). Possible solutions would include in the future no toll vehicles on the 395 portion of this road. Or a state tax to pay off the HOT lanes and make them public HOV again".

Bob

Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 27 Dec 2005 at 9:27am

I actually think that it would be better for the congestion problem if NO ONE rides for free - except for HOV-40 (for 1/2 price). Essentially, buses pay nothing, and passengers pay 50% of what they would have paid if going through the toll booth. Buses pick up/drop off where the slug lines are now - with no stops in between. Commuters can choose to pay full price and wear and tear on their cars or let the bus take them for 1/2 price. Can't swear to it, but makes sense to me that the overall congestion problem goes away.

Posted By: N_or_S_bound
Date Posted: 27 Dec 2005 at 11:06am

You did ignore one essential component to the equation: The need for tolls evaporates if the HOV lanes becomes bus only lanes. No need to extend HOV (or HOT) since those who put a premium on commute time over personal space have already shown a proven willingness to sacrifice personal comfort/convenience/space to achieve a relatively expeditious commute. Those who haven't shown that willingness continue to either sit in the main lanes mvoing at 5 mph on a good day or have attempted to purchase their way to a faster commute by financing themselves into an overpriced, overmarketed vehicle.

The reward for selfishness should never be to give the selfish one what they hoped to achieve thereby enforcing their overly selfish behavior. Extinction of such behaviors is the only reasonable approach.

NoSb

SOV because you can, HOV because you care!

Posted By: Bob
Date Posted: 28 Dec 2005 at 6:03pm

Now the UVa website says that we will have a 3 BILLION DOLLAR surplus in VA next yr. Of course, all the state employees are salivating over increased salaries and benefits. So you ask why I am so cynical when just a fraction of the surplus could solve our regional problems, but we have been sold to HOT developers

http://www.virginia.edu/topnews/

Posted By: goober
Date Posted: 29 Dec 2005 at 3:11pm

Good point. I know that roads are a top priority in Northern Virginia but since we are regionally separate, it can't be as high a priority with legislators in the rest of the state.

The current HOV lanes definitely need improvement. Expansion for the current volume of traffic and resurfacing inside the beltway is obviously required. But conceptually, it doesn't appear to be that expensive to complete. So, why can't we pay for it ourselves and exclude developers? We have $800 million to spend on transporation improvements but I'll bet NoVA gets a small proportion compared to the other areas. Developers are always in it for themselves -- paint a rosy picture and leave everyone scratching their heads in the end. It's not only these newfangled private road developers but you can lump housing developers in there too.[:(!] This notion of PPTA should not apply to existing roads that we paid for already!

Goober

Posted By: dickboyd
Date Posted: 29 Dec 2005 at 8:10pm

quote:
Originally posted by goober
[br]Good point. I know that roads are a top priority in Northern Virginia but since we are regionally separate, it can't be as high a priority with legislators in the rest of the state.

The current HOV lanes definitely need improvement. Expansion for the current volume of traffic and resurfacing inside the beltway is obviously required. But conceptually, it doesn't appear to be that expensive to complete. So, why can't we pay for it ourselves and exclude developers? We have $800 million to spend on transporation improvements but I'll bet NoVA gets a small proportion compared to the other areas. Developers are always in it for themselves -- paint a rosy picture and leave everyone scratching their heads in the end. It's not only these newfangled private road developers but you can lump housing developers in there too.[:(!] This notion of PPTA should not apply to existing roads that we paid for already!

Goober

Dillon Rule

dickboyd@aol.com

Posted By: n/a
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2006 at 2:54pm

No goober, the problem is that there are so few taxpayers per road mile in the rest of the state that our taxes for roads are pulled away from the region (where we see the need) and used in rural areas. This revives the discussion about NoVA taxes supporting rural VA infrastrucure. Its not fair! Many would say that our NoVA tax dollars should stay here in NoVA, and certainly they would be put to good use. But that would mean that much of rural VA would not have adequate roads.

Posted By: goober
Date Posted: 04 Jan 2006 at 4:47pm

Ok Dick, Dillon Rule is the crux of the matter but do you really expect participants of the slug system to change how we are governed? So, given the circumstances, what do you suggest we focus on to make a difference? It looks like we have little to no clout, so HOT will move forward, but can we ensure that HOV stays free forever?

Goober

Posted By: dickboyd
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2006 at 12:38am

quote:
Originally posted by goober
[br]Ok Dick, Dillon Rule is the crux of the matter but do you really expect participants of the slug system to change how we are governed? So, given the circumstances, what do you suggest we focus on to make a difference? It looks like we have little to no clout, so HOT will move forward, but can we ensure that HOV stays free forever?

Goober

Do I expect participants of the slug system to change how we are governed? No.

But I do expect participants to understand how Virginians are governed. All too often slugs are new to Virginia and think that Virginia is governed like the place they came from. Virginia is more of a do it yourself place. If you can do it yourself, then do it. Elected officials demand too much of a mark up for their services.

Don't ask an elected official for anything unless they owe you big time. For instance, you canvassed the neighbohood for the swing vote that carried the last election. You contributed enough to cover TV spots, etc.

The losses that slugs have suffered have not come from the people that slugs vote for. Or that slugs will ever be in a position to vote for. The losses come from the Stan Parris and Ken Plums and Daryl Issas. Yes, there are losses of slug parking that can be attributed to County Supervisors. Yes, there is loss of slug promotion that can be attributed to County Supervisors. But those supervisors seem to be mirroring the political winds. What it takes to get them elected. Campaign contributions from transit workers.

Slugs don't carry enough political clout one way or the other to make a difference with elected officials. You can try. But the more honest elected officials will deny that they have any ability to do anything about transportation. The better ones will help lay out a list of contacts that make transportation decisions. The poorer ones will lead you astray with promises that they will do something while they vote more subsidy for VRE and WMATA/METRO. They can't do anything except kill slugs. Their hands are tied when it comes to helping slugs. They can't even recruit slugs. They can't publicly support slugging.

Normally, in the public arena, I would suggest concentrating on the Commonwealth Transportaion Board through the northern Virginia representatives on CTB. But I don't think Kate Hanley gives a hoot about efficient use of roads. She strikes me as being enthralled by the political success of Sharon Bulova, Eileen McConnell and other elected members that are on the board of directors of VRE or sit on the various representative boards to the Metropolitan Planning Organizations. The "official" emphasis seems to be on transit at any price. If someone is willing to be a passenger, the attitude I'm picking up from elected officials is that passengers belong in transit, not in someone else's car.

What to focus on to make a difference?

Getting passengers from the ranks of the drive alones.

How do you recruit a slug? Use the personnel department at work (human resources) to identify future passengers. If possible, get computer lists of where people live by ZIP code. If names can't be released, at least ask for a head count to determine if there are people you might approach.

Use the company newspaper to praise the benefits of slugging. Use your personal contacts at the kid's sporting events, at church, when shopping. Make a mental note of the people you see driving alone in the regular lanes and see if any of them are at your work place. Drop a subtle hint that you drove alone when you first came to northen Virginia until you discovered slugging.

When you make a purchase, make sure the merchant knows the reason you have the money to make the purchase is that you slug. If the merchant still doesn't get the hint follow up with a comment about how his sales could increase if more people slugged. Comment about how much more efficient parking is at the store now that people slug. If he still doesn't get the hint, suggest that the money collected in taxes to support VRE and WMATA does not stay in Virginia.

Concentrate on making all lanes flow smoothly. Get a model from Robert Lang to explain the need to share the ride.

This is political. Ken Plum is an excellent delegate and has done great thing for education in Virginia. It would be a shame to lose him. But Ken introduced legislation that affects people not in his district. Namely the hybrid exemption. Ken is not on any of the committees that deal with transportation. I don't know his motivation for supporting drive alone hybrids.

But something the voters in Reston seem to fear is affordable housing. Talk to some people in Reston and see how they feel about affordable housing. Ask why there are so few teachers, firefighters and road workers that can afford to live there. Possibly Ken would be willing to trade off affordable housing for dropping his efforts to destroy the people carrying capacity in the Shirley corridor.

Even the rumbling of affordable housing might get Ken Plum busy on things in his own back yard.

What was the legislation about the number of people that could live in a house? No uncles or aunts? No sleeping in the kitchen?

Skip the politics, that can backfire. Distance yourself from politics and politicians. Concentrate on recruiting passengers from the ranks of the drive alones.

Reading financial tea leaves. PPTA and HOt are the wave of the future. Politcians are gutless as are American banks. Spain, Austrlia and European banks will eat our lunch when it comes to transportation investment. National security? Who cares if the Spanish own the freeways and the dollars flow to Barcelona? Apparently not the people that live in the corridor.

Do you know any American bankers or finaciers?

What Robert Lang can bring to the table is some sanity. The way I read the proposals for HOt (capital HO, lower case t), the operator will charge tolls high enough to divert enough drive alones into transit or travelling at some other time. Two aspects of how much to charge are what does it take to get people to change what time of day they are on the road and how much do you have to pay them to sit in congested traffic in the regular lanes.

The thing to concentrate on is wasted public porperty. The underutilized parallel road that should be carrying 1,800 vehicles per lane per hour, but instead carries only 500 to 1,000 vehicles per lane per hour. The parallel road with low reliability of service. One day in twenty will be congested. Sometimes congestion lasting as long as 48 hours. (Black powder truck turned over in Springfield Interchange, e.g.)

Some of the money collected on HOt will be used to pay people to ride in transit. If HOt doens't collect enough money to pay VRE and transit, people aren't going to dig into their own pockets. But as long as it looks like someone else is paying, they will be just like the politicians. In the trough with both feet and a snout. So we are back to the emphasis on learning how the people in Virginia govern themselves. Do they do it themselves, or do they turn it over to elected officials? How much money is in your wallet?

dickboyd@aol.com

Posted By: Bob
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2006 at 8:21am

Although it is very difficult to plow through anything Dick Boyd writes, I interpret it as very pro HOT. He has bought into the theory that flows can be adjusted through dynamic tolling. This may work on some HOT lane in Houston but it won't work with the 14th Street bottleneck. The pro HOTs say we can reduce the number of toll vehicles through higher tolls. I will GUARANTEE that the HOT developers projections have THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of toll vehicles going up 395. This is the only way they will make a profit. Option A when congestion happens is to toll HOVs. What level of common sense does this take to understand that this is totally unattainable? What I think is the people on the Comm. Transportation Board typicially graduated with training in liberal arts and have no concept of traffic management.

Posted By: Jerry Seinfeld
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2006 at 9:13am

What's the deal with Dickboyd? Does any of what he said make any sense? No sleeping in the kitchen ?! What kind of society is dickboyd trying to run? I don't get it.

Posted By: dickboyd
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2006 at 3:01pm

quote:
Originally posted by Jerry Seinfeld
[br]What's the deal with Dickboyd? Does any of what he said make any sense? No sleeping in the kitchen ?! What kind of society is dickboyd trying to run? I don't get it.

Some Virginia laws are held up for ridicule by the rest of the country. Leslie Byrne introduced a law to make it illegal to sleep in your kitchen. The intent was to control the number of people living in a single family dwelling. Many "guest workers" are living twenty to a house that was designed for five. This occupancy overloads the road, sewers and schools. Any attempt to address the over occupancy problem meets strong political opposition. So there are strange laws coming out of Virginia.

The lastest Virginia law was to identify what constituted a relative. The way they defined relative excluded aunts and uncles. Aunts and uncles seem to be prominent with guest workers.

Apparently local news services don't think the laws are funny or for some reason don't publicize them.

dickboyd@aol.com

Posted By: dickboyd
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2006 at 3:13pm

quote:
Originally posted by Bob
[br]Although it is very difficult to plow through anything Dick Boyd writes, I interpret it as very pro HOT. He has bought into the theory that flows can be adjusted through dynamic tolling. This may work on some HOT lane in Houston but it won't work with the 14th Street bottleneck. The pro HOTs say we can reduce the number of toll vehicles through higher tolls. I will GUARANTEE that the HOT developers projections have THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of toll vehicles going up 395. This is the only way they will make a profit. Option A when congestion happens is to toll HOVs. What level of common sense does this take to understand that this is totally unattainable? What I think is the people on the Comm. Transportation Board typicially graduated with training in liberal arts and have no concept of traffic management.

Bob, thanks for your interpretation of what I was trying to say. I am pro high occupancy and anti toll. I am pro getting ALL lanes flowing smoothly.

Have I bought into the theory that variable tolling can adjust flow? No. Does variable tolling work in Texas? No. Califronia? No.

What CAN adjust flow is more passengers or more drive alones switching to a different time. What does it take to get passengers? Better parking? Better pick up points? More publicity? What does it take to get people to change time of day road use?

From what I read of the Fluor or Clark proposals, what they are selling is the ability for an elite group of rich people to drive alone while everyone else can ride transit. From what I see of the reaction from the people that will be affected, the response is ho-hum. When that time comes, I'll ride VRE.

CTB member comment? Agreed. But more political science than liberal arts. Fund raisers, vote getters. Their concept of traffic management? "Do it their way. Any questions?"

dickboyd@aol.com

Posted By: Bob
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2006 at 5:14pm

Great!

Then I stand corrected on your position.

Posted By: goober
Date Posted: 10 Jan 2006 at 8:41am

Dick, You said "The thing to concentrate on is wasted public porperty. The underutilized parallel road that should be carrying 1,800 vehicles per lane per hour, but instead carries only 500 to 1,000 vehicles per lane per hour. The parallel road with low reliability of service. One day in twenty will be congested. Sometimes congestion lasting as long as 48 hours. (Black powder truck turned over in Springfield Interchange, e.g.)"

What is the underutilized parallel road, the HOV or regular lanes?
I don't see any underutilized road during rush hour. Or are you suggesting that the roads during non-peak hours are underutilized?

Goober

Posted By: Bob
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2006 at 2:00pm

Interesting article about the Dulles Toll Road. Seems that Fairfax Co is now wanting to keep control of it rather than privatize and lose control. Seems to me the same argument can be made about HOT lanes.
Dont privatize existing highways.

http://www.wtopnews.com/?nid=25&sid=725069#

Posted By: karmapolice
Date Posted: 28 Mar 2006 at 8:45am

I didn't know whether I should start a new topic for this question. My friend told who is from NYC told me that the Northern VA HOV lanes are under utilized and are a failed social engineering experiment. I slug to DC from Woodbridge and was really hurt by his comments.

Are the HOV lanes underutilized?

Posted By: MDC
Date Posted: 28 Mar 2006 at 12:21pm

If you go between Woodbridge, and DC... You know the answer.

Posted By: karmapolice
Date Posted: 28 Mar 2006 at 1:05pm

"If you go between Woodbridge, and DC... You know the answer."

No, I don't. I leave Horner Road around 7:30 in the morning and have yet to experience any delays in traffic. Maybe he's right and I'm too emotionally tied to this to see the truth. Do you know of any good sold articles that talk about the effectiveness of the HOV. Is it being used to it's max limit?

Posted By: Bob
Date Posted: 28 Mar 2006 at 1:44pm

A friend of mine from Texas said that New York is a failed social engineering experiment.

quote:
Originally posted by karmapolice
[br]I didn't know whether I should start a new topic for this question. My friend told who is from NYC told me that the Northern VA HOV lanes are under utilized and are a failed social engineering experiment. I slug to DC from Woodbridge and was really hurt by his comments.

Are the HOV lanes underutilized?

Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 28 Mar 2006 at 8:42pm

quote:
Originally posted by karmapolice
[br]"If you go between Woodbridge, and DC... You know the answer."

No, I don't. I leave Horner Road around 7:30 in the morning and have yet to experience any delays in traffic. Maybe he's right and I'm too emotionally tied to this to see the truth. Do you know of any good sold articles that talk about the effectiveness of the HOV. Is it being used to it's max limit?

There have been studies, but as you might expect, some studies have a bias in one direction, and some in the other. Recommend you look at postings by Robert Lang or Dick Boyd - they have explored this topic previously, and both offer their email addresses if you want to contact them directly.

Most on this site offer opinions or observed "facts." Most also see things through their point of view - biased, narrow minded, and unlikely to withstand empirical data review.

I also do not see the express lane congestion that you do not see, but I only use I-395. At the same time, I see tremendous congestion in the regular lanes during HOV hours. However, some will say that just because express lanes move above the speed limit and regular lanes crawl, that still doesn't mean that the express lanes are under utilized because additional vehicles will put them at a "tipping point" and they will no longer be able to travel at high speeds.

Interesting that other areas with similar populations don't have near the congestion, nor do those areas have lanes dedicated to just HOV.

Posted By: N_or_S_bound
Date Posted: 29 Mar 2006 at 7:33am

karma,

IF you're really going to explore this, make sure you level the playing field in when trying to compare the apple to the orange. Realize the HOV is meant to move the most people in the shortest amount of time. The mainlanes aren't. A vehicle-to-vehicle comparison isn't completely valid. Numbers of people versus time is a more adequate metric.

Remove the incentive from HOV and will you really accomplish the goal of more people in less time?

NoSb

SOV because you can, HOV because you care!

Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 29 Mar 2006 at 4:06pm

To jump on NoSB's comment, another way to look at it is if the regular lanes moved at the posted speed limit, would they be able to move the same number of people as the express lanes over the same time? If yes, build more capacity. Also, you could provide better public transportation and then make it the only time effective transportation method - sort of like the NYC area. In this area, though, 2 out of 3 people in the express lanes travel for free, so any alternative affects their pocket book. The only short term solution to the mess is to charge everyone who wants to pay for traveling faster, and that means tolls.

Posted By: MDC
Date Posted: 30 Mar 2006 at 2:36pm

If HOV is underutilized, it's because the excessive number of SOVs is reducing it's efficiency at moving people.

Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 30 Mar 2006 at 8:08pm

MDC: Actually, express lanes are underutilized because of the lack of vehicle using them. I still have to slow down to get to the speed limit, and numerous times (PM beginning of HOV hours) there are no cars for 1/4 mile!

Posted By: MDC
Date Posted: 31 Mar 2006 at 6:49am

It must be nice to head home at 3:30. By 4:30PM on most days the traffic is nothing like you describe. You'd have to drive on the shoulder if you wanted to go at or above the speed limit.

Nobody said that the end of morning HOV, or beginning of afternoon HOV is crowded. If you get on HOV anywhere between 5AM and 8AM, you're lucky to go the speed limit anywhere on I-95's HOV. I almost never get above 65, and feel lucky when I do get to 65MPH in the afternoon but it's rarely before I'm almost out of Fairfax county.

Posted By: Luddite
Date Posted: 31 Mar 2006 at 12:01pm

Karmapolice,
You said, "I leave Horner Road around 7:30 in the morning and have yet to experience any delays in traffic."

Your comment is absurd. Please go away.