HOT question: tolls during non-rush hour
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Topic: HOT question: tolls during non-rush hour
Posted By: shahedC
Subject: HOT question: tolls during non-rush hour
Date Posted: 18 Jul 2005 at 8:35am
During non-rush hours, do riders on the proposed HOT lanes have to pay toll?
If so, can we avoid the toll if we carry the required 3 or 4 people?
Or can the toll be avoided only for HOV 3 or 4 during rush hour?
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Replies:
Posted By: shahedC
Date Posted: 18 Jul 2005 at 4:38pm
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Thanks for the info, RLD.
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Posted By: vaqtpie
Date Posted: 18 Jul 2005 at 8:22pm
So if the HOV goes toll road, are the drivers going to expect us to help pay the toll?
Does anyone know what van pools cost?
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Posted By: bowflexguy
Date Posted: 18 Jul 2005 at 8:51pm
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$100 a month for van pool....but this is DC you get paid a ton - just open your wallet.
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Posted By: shahedC
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2005 at 9:05am
vaqtpie, there's no charge for the riders if you have the prerequisite number of people in your car (HOV 3 or HOV 4), so the driver doesn't have to expect anything from the riders, since there will be no toll.
My only concern here was for non-rush hour times... I go to DC on weekends and sometimes on weeknights, so it's nice to be able to use the HOV lanes when available. But since they will always charge, I can always take the backroads...
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Posted By: defender
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2005 at 9:46am
quote:
Originally posted by shahedC
[br]v --- since there will be no toll ---
LMAOROTG
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Posted By: SpongeBob
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2005 at 10:57am
Defender is speechless, so allow me to answer, Shahedc:
(and pardon me while I raise my voice yet again for the benefit of the hard of hearing and the small of brain...)
THERE WILL BE NO FREE HOV BECAUSE THERE IS NO TECHNOLOGY TO DO IT!
YOU CANNOT CHARGE ONE CAR A TOLL AND NOT CHARGE ANOTHER CAR AT MULTIPLE SMARTTAG LOCATIONS WITH MULTIPLE EXITS.
THE TOLL BOOTHS CANNOT TELL, AND NEVER EVER WILL BE ABLE TO TELL, HOW MANY PEOPLE ARE IN A CAR.
ONLY THE HUMAN EYE CAN VERIFY HOV-3, AND YOU CANNOT PUT A PERSON ON EVERY OFFRAMP 24/7, ESPECIALLY THE HIGH-SPEED SLIP-RAMPS. AND HOW COULD THEY TELL IF YOU PAID OR NOT? OR HOW MUCH YOU PAID? OR WHEN YOU GOT ON THE TOLLWAY?
Ergo, and for the last flippin' time folks, The Toll Booth Will Charge HOV Cars the SAME EXACT AMOUNT as the SOV's.
Believe me, Fluor and Clark both KNOW this.
(Man, I'm out of breath.)
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Posted By: shahedC
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2005 at 11:07am
Obviously, I understand that an automatic toll gate cannot count heads, so I figured they would provide a manned gate at every entry to ensure that... if not, then they've been lying this whole time when they tell us that HOV will not be charged on HOT. Why have they been telling us this?
So yeah, if everyone gets charged, then this will break up the slug system... now I see the concern for all this... if there's no HOV, then both the main lines and the HOT lanes will be congested.
So... do you know when construction is expected to begin? Also, when will the first phase be complete to put HOT in effect?
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Posted By: KCWolfPck
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2005 at 11:43am
quote:
Originally posted by SpongeBob
[br]THERE WILL BE NO FREE HOV BECAUSE THERE IS NO TECHNOLOGY TO DO IT!
You sure do spout out speculation like it really means something. Do you care to back up this statement with facts?
Thought not......
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Posted By: defender
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2005 at 11:56am
quote:
Originally posted by KCWolfPck
[br]quote:
Originally posted by SpongeBob
[br]THERE WILL BE NO FREE HOV BECAUSE THERE IS NO TECHNOLOGY TO DO IT!
You sure do spout out speculation like it really means something. Do you care to back up this statement with facts?
Thought not......
Tell me what technology you can use. We'd all love to see a demonstration.
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Posted By: emancilla
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2005 at 12:19pm
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I would love to see a demostration.
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Posted By: shahedC
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2005 at 1:13pm
Stop arguing about the technology, no one is asking for robotic cameras to detect living breathing passengers... let's just focus on what we know. They have told us repeatedly that HOV will continue to ride free.
So... I repeat my question: Why would they tell us that HOV will continue to ride free if they had no intention of placing manned toll gates at every entrance/exit?
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Posted By: KCWolfPck
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2005 at 1:39pm
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My point had nothing to do with technology......I wanted to know what facts you have that show that there will be NO FREE HOV???? You state that like you KNOW it to be true. Please share what you KNOW.
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Posted By: Sheepish
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2005 at 2:59pm
Why do you think they continue to tell us that HOV will continue to ride free? They are telling people want they want to hear in order to win the proposal! When pressed by RobertLangDirect, as they were last Thursday night at the PWC Transportation Symposium, each representative admitted it wasn't a guarantee that they would remain free forever. You should have been there to listen as they tried to respond to RLD's point and question (free means free now, forever... how can you guarantee this?)
Once they determined that a good portion of the audience was against HOT, they were still quick to always throw in a comment on how HOV would remain free and even noted how this would encourage an increase in HOV-3 ridership when answering questions to the public in attendance. I sat there absolutely baffled that after admitting that there is no gaurantee the lanes would remain ever free... they still kept repeating "it will remain free." Do they think we're idiots?
I do not have a business degree, but it's obvious to me--- if the lanes are dominated by free riders-- over time, how do all those new entrances and off ramps, roads.... all that work that's been done get paid for? Hmmm....aren't there are consequences when someone doesn't pay a bill on time?? They'll get the money somehow-- if laws have to be changed in order to get it.. This is a business to Clark and Fluor..... don't ever forget this....If the lanes are clogged and they can't maintain "optimal traffic flow" and do not allow additional cars on the road--- then how does the car of 3+ people get on and utilize the lanes? It will be 'Oops-- sorry, no room for you right now-- we don't have optimal flow because we let on too many paying customers.'
And to answer the question as to when construction will start... VDOT still has to decide which proposal or do nothing.
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Posted By: N_or_S_bound
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2005 at 3:48pm
quote:
Originally posted by Sheepish
[br].... admitted it wasn't a guarantee that they would remain free forever. ...
... encourage an increase in HOV-3 ridership ...
Ok, 2 snips...
Free forever. Ain't gonna happen. Guarantee, another ain't. There may come a time where we pay more to ride certain roads than we currently do. A bit of hyperbole here with words like guarantee and forever (esp when they're together in a sentence). This ain't Craftsman tools we're talking about.
Jump on the piece they did offer, increasing HOV-3 ridership. We'd like to do that now. Actually, more accurately increase HOV-4 ridership and remove exemptions. That is a pretty realistic INCREMENTAL step to alleviating current congestion challenges. Don't understand why people can't see that (on both sides of the equation). I do understand that "show me the money" or follow the money should be the theme thought when listening to them.
It is all about money. Money to big businesses who are in business to make more money at someone's expense. And money to the political candidates who need funds to win elections. They can be short-sighted enough to only think about their political career. The impact of poor planning decisions now won't come back on most of them while they're still in office. Most of them will be retired on horse farms far away from NoVA and nonethesorrier for leaving things in whatever state this all evolves to.
Hybrid drivers (and anyone else who can garner an exemption) are none the purer in their motives. They are in it for the shortterm gain too, even at the evident expense of others in the HOV.
I'm not altruistic. I want a shorter commute time for ME! I am willing to "give a little" though and pick up a 3rd rider to reduce the number of vehicles in the HOV should that become the norm. In the immediate, picking up a 3rd does nothing to reduce congestion. Oh yeah, I'm in it for the money too. Someday I may be able to retire to a horse farm far from NoVA as well. Just speaking truth...
NoSb
SOV because you can, HOV because you care!
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Posted By: 122582
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2005 at 3:52pm
I agree with N or S in that I want a shorter commute, but not at any expense. I wouldn't mind HOV 4, but no tolls - ever.
I do think if any money is spent, it needs to be on extending the HOV to LadySmith. I zoom down the HOV to 234, then crawl to Rt 3.
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Posted By: mroyal
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2005 at 4:27pm
quote:
Originally posted by SpongeBob
[br]YOU CANNOT CHARGE ONE CAR A TOLL AND NOT CHARGE ANOTHER CAR AT MULTIPLE SMARTTAG LOCATIONS WITH MULTIPLE EXITS.
...
AND HOW COULD THEY TELL IF YOU PAID OR NOT? OR HOW MUCH YOU PAID? OR WHEN YOU GOT ON THE TOLLWAY?
...
I have given the challenge you describe above (rather loudly for an invertebrate, I must say) some thought and I think it could be done two ways as follows:
First way
1. Create separate entry lanes for HOV and HOT. Smart pass the HOT entry lane and have strict enforcement of the HOV entry lane. Give the winning company enforcement authority with some of the very high penalty fees going to the LEO's and some to the company pocket (for enforcement incentive)
2. Forget about trying to enforce on the highway and on the exit ramp. As you say, it's probably not possible without significant infrastructure costs.
Secound way
I'm sure though, if they really wanted to, technology could be designed similar in concept to the smart cards used on the Metro. Readers could see the time, origination and etc of the HOT vehicle. If they did that and included the readers in in an "easy-pass" environment, you could enforce the exit lanes as well as a single entry lane.
You could also have mobile readers in the LEO's for on-highway enforcement. If the LEO can't read the easy-pass, it better have 3 or more persons on board.
Disclaimer: This is just an idea - don't know if current technology supports it.
p.s. LEO = Law Enforcement Officer
Kindest Regards,
mroyal
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Posted By: mroyal
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2005 at 4:45pm
Yup, I think it could be done. Just a quick peek led me to wi-fi RFID which could be easily programmed for this type of application.
Here is an example
http://www.aeroscout.com/content.asp?page=T2Features
and here is a how todays todays EZPass (SmartPass)works. I don't see where the current card carries any dynamic information, so it would take an infrastructure upgrade to do what I suggested in my previous message.
http://www.howstuffworks.com/e-zpass1.htm
Kindest Regards,
mroyal
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Posted By: mroyal
Date Posted: 15 Aug 2005 at 3:11pm
Bump
Just wanted to see if SpongeBob noticed my suggested technical solution.
Kindest Regards,
mroyal
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Posted By: koakui
Date Posted: 15 Aug 2005 at 4:01pm
I can't imagine that hov 3 will be free for the reason RLD states. Its too hard to mandate. What I've read said they will "try" to keep hov free but no guarantees.
I lived in SoCal for some years and the 91 is always packed at rush hour. Sometimes worse than the regular lanes. In addition, its way too expensive and you have to pay all the time. Sometimes I would get on there thinking I would save some time and just pay the toll and unfortunately they wouldn't be moving any better than the regular lanes. So I wasted my money and got to sit in traffic. I ended up just taking my chances everyday and/or riding sharing w/ a coworker in the HOV - but again - it wasn't much better. I'm hoping by the time HOT comes, I can figure out something for my commute as I fear the worst.
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Posted By: goober
Date Posted: 15 Aug 2005 at 4:06pm
mroyal, I think that making separate HOT and HOV entrance lanes will definitely make it possible to not charge HOVs, that is, you don't necessarily need high-tech means to make that distinction (don't give those contractors that idea). However, I can see them eventually start charging the "free loading" HOVs because they don't generate revenue. They can charge a reduced toll for HOVs but it still ruins the whole slugging system. So, in the end, they win unless HOT is STOPPPED NOW. See you at the:
September 21, 2005
Ferlazzo Auditorium
Prince William County
15941 Donald Curtis Drive
Woodbridge, VA. 22193
NOTE: The September 21 meeting is planned for public comments. (copied from shirons HOT Lanes Discussion)
Goober
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Posted By: mroyal
Date Posted: 16 Aug 2005 at 9:44am
Yea,
I'm not arguing in support of HOT. I don't see anything positive in it for the current HOVers.
I just took the sponge challenge to provide a way to enforce (sortof) HOV and SOV in the same lanes.
Good luck in your battles. I hope you win the war.
Kindest Regards,
mroyal
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Posted By: AveMaria
Date Posted: 16 Aug 2005 at 10:52am
HOT is a reality!
I had my head sawed off on an earlier post when I suggested that if the proposal calls for constructing three lanes -- dedicate two lanes to HOT and one lane to HOV with some type of 3'(barrier) structure which separates the two lanes.
HOV lanes having only left lane entrance/exits and HOT having only RIGHT lane entrance/exits.
If someone gets sarcastic with me, I swear on my dead dog's grave I will, I will...[:(!]
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Posted By: AveMaria
Date Posted: 16 Aug 2005 at 10:55am
Oh, and I do plan to be at the meeting on 21 Sep b/c this directly effects my lifestyle.
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Posted By: goober
Date Posted: 16 Aug 2005 at 3:00pm
quote:
Originally posted by mroyal
[br]Good luck in your battles. I hope you win the war.
Does this mean that you won't join in the battle?
Goober
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Posted By: mroyal
Date Posted: 16 Aug 2005 at 4:20pm
I am willing to send electronic and postal mail to my representatives, but I get quite bored at hearings (sorry).
From my experience and conversations with staffers, I believe e-mail is largely ignored (it's more of a poll). If you really want to communicate, send postal mail and on the front print "Urgent and Confidential"
Kindest Regards,
mroyal
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Posted By: SpongeBob
Date Posted: 17 Aug 2005 at 4:23pm
The central issue about HOT is whether HOV will remain free. Reduced fare is not enough, it has to be as it is now: free.
Both Fluor and Clark have proposed for I95/395 a multi-access, automated, full-speed tolling system that will connect to a larger region-wide HOT network. The HOT lanes would run from Massaponax to Fairfax to Reston to Manassas to Dulles, etc and so on. Fluor signed a contract just a few months ago to build HOT lanes on the Beltway, the first step in the regional plan.
As far as I can learn, no toll road system of similar size or complexity has ever been done before. Not in the US, not in Australia, not anywhere.
But I think Fluor and Clark could do it; they could build the world's most advanced toll road network, and make it work.
What they can't do, and their silence on the issue is proof, is let HOV ride for free on the system. Want some proof? Well, look for the next Sponge-sermon.
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Posted By: SuzAnne
Date Posted: 18 Aug 2005 at 8:14am
Sponge;
You have proof. SR-91 in CA.
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Posted By: gmugrad
Date Posted: 18 Aug 2005 at 9:38am
Yeah we make so much in DC that is why so many of us live out in stafford. Hello the prices are through the roof here and normal people don't make that much. The local jobs pay dirt and so that is why so many of us work in DC and slug. Open our wallets my butt.
Hot lanes won't work. The only thing that will work is getting the DC companies to open their eyes and allow for telecommuting centers in fredericksburg.
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Posted By: goober
Date Posted: 19 Aug 2005 at 10:47am
Does including a separate HOT and HOV ENTRANCE lanes make it possible to keep HOV free? Sponge says that "THERE WILL BE NO FREE HOV BECAUSE THERE IS NO TECHNOLOGY TO DO IT!" However, you should not be required to use Smarttag if you have an HOV-3.
You don't need to "PUT A PERSON ON EVERY OFFRAMP 24/7, ESPECIALLY THE HIGH-SPEED SLIP-RAMPS", just a person in an "HOV only entrance" for the duration of HOV hours.
However, a problem will arise when the decision makers start to charge HOVers, like they did in California, SR-91 HOT. The contractors won't guarantee that HOV will be free because they want a way to save their asses in the event that a substantial number in the HOT lanes are HOVs (they don't generate revenue).
Is it unrealistic to demand that if they build HOT, HOV will be free forever?
Goober
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Posted By: SpongeBob
Date Posted: 24 Aug 2005 at 12:30pm
--sigh--
Goober, there CANNOT BE separate HOV and Toll entrances. The enforcement of the toll and the tolling itself are linked and must take place at the same point. Otherwise, I can drive onto the lanes through the HOV entrance, put my Smarttag in the "sock" which keeps the gantries from reading it (this is how it is done, btw,) and go my merry way. The tolling gantry can't tell if I'm HOV or SOV, so what does it do? Why, it lets me pass for free, doesn't it. Because as far as it can tell, I'm HOV.
The difference between dinky little SR-91 and our system is that ours is intended to be multi-access and multi-route and multi-toll-boothed.
If there was a single entrance point on the system, and only a few exit points downstream from that, you could do HOV enforcement and tolling at that single point and it would work (while still discouraging ridesharing, of course.)
But on the system Fluor and Clark are proposing, it CANNOT BE DONE. They say as bloody much in their proposals! And VDOT has asked them, "Why don't you tell us how you plan to accomodate HOV?"
No answer has been given because there IS NO ANSWER.
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Posted By: Bob
Date Posted: 24 Aug 2005 at 1:00pm
HOV enforcement will be a nightmare and I agree that with new entrance and exit points it makes it basically impossible. The only way it could be done would be to have the enforcement areas split into HOV and toll lanes (on the same ramp), ie, a two lane onramp or offramp. I dont see how that is possible from an engineering or practicality standpoint.
One of the companies said they are going to herd the HOVS into a separate lane for enforcement at the Pentagon, while the SOVs whiz by to the left. But how do you do that at 5 (?) different exit ramps?
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Posted By: SpongeBob
Date Posted: 24 Aug 2005 at 1:30pm
Even split ramps wouldn't work because who is there to enforce it? And how can the gantry tell if you paid or not? When your car passes under, the gantry registers your Smarttag and takes cash from your account. An SOV in a van could drive under without a Smarttag and then exit at the SOV ramp. Who's gonna know?
No, the only way a multi-access, multi-route, multi-tollbooth system works is if EVERYONE on it is charged on a per-mile basis. The engineers at Fluor and Clark know this. The marketers of HOT know it. The people at VDOT know it.
For a year I've asked here for working examples from comparable highway systems. I've written to experts asking about technological solutions to counting passengers. I've asked for people to offer answers on how to mix SOV and free HOV.
You know what I've learned?
No one has ever built such a complicated tolling system.
Experts admit no technology exists to count passengers.
HOV is indistinguishable from SOV: the toll charge will be same.
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Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 24 Aug 2005 at 3:21pm
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Sponge, I know a much smaller scale system was used in San Diego for the Coronado Bay bridge. Toll booths were set up at one end, with the right lane for HOV. Tolls were manually collected, and traffic backed up for miles.
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Posted By: fryed_1
Date Posted: 24 Aug 2005 at 3:28pm
I think they should issue neck braces with small explosive charges in them with coin slots. If you aren't wearing them when you enter the lanes, you get charges an exuberant amount of money. If you are wearing them you can safely make it onto the HOT/HOV lanes. If you try to cheat in any way by not paying toll, they explode sending your and your passengers' heads into orbit.
Seriously though, without massive construction or separating HOV/HOT lanes completely or manned toll booths (which would slow traffic horrendously and defeat the purpose of the highspeed lanes), I don't see how they could effectively govern those with 3 or more passengers from SOV.
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Posted By: Max_28756
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2005 at 12:38pm
NoSUV,
I drove over that bridge for 3 years. It was HOV-2 with one lane to go through. You still had to slow so they could take a look. It became worse when a carrier was in port.
We are about to go through the same thing but increased 100 fold. The only people making these decisions don't drive the roads during the rush hour(s). They consider a traffic jam - hitting 3 red lights on their drive to the office. This whole HOT idea is so ridiculous it's maddening to even think it's being considered!
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Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2005 at 12:57pm
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Max, I think it comes down to the inability to solve the overall congestion problem. Tolls will allow the governemnt to control how many cars are in the express lanes, and then tell those in the regular lanes that they can pay if they don't want to sit in traffic, so quit complaining. Express lanes as they are now move at least 35 mph faster than the regular lanes, and that's WITH hybrids. Some hybrid owners are willing to pay for the priviledge of less congestion, and removal of the exemption mobilizes them to support tolls. The slug anti-hybrid exemption sentiment is partially responsible for this situation - this site was quoted by VDOT as rationale for recommending removal of the exemption. Delegates in the area also refer to slugs when making proposals to remove the exemption. Is it any wonder that the hybrid owners are pro-toll?
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Posted By: MDC
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2005 at 8:16pm
NoSUV,
You haven't made the case that HOT reduces congestion even slightly. We do know that it will reduce ride sharing though.
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