This is how to lift the Hybrid exemption !!
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Forum Name: Hybrids
Forum Description: This area is devoted to the discussion of hybrid vehicles and their impact to the HOV.
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Topic: This is how to lift the Hybrid exemption !!
Posted By: ronsray
Subject: This is how to lift the Hybrid exemption !!
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2005 at 10:04am
In the Washington Post Article as well as the VDOT Web Site it says that Governor Warner should lift the HOV exemption for Hybrids if Virginia is notified that it is in violation of Federal Statutes. It also states that Virginia WAS notified already that we are by the Federal Highway Administration. So doesn't the Governor have a legal responsibility to lift the exemption NOW ???
So what do we do ???
********** We need to find a Lawyer who wamts to make a name for himself & do some Pro-Bono work. Then we need to get together & sue Virginia to enforce the law and lift the exemption NOW ********
Any attorneys out there want to Volunteer ?????
We also all need to go to the Governors Website and ask him to obey the Federal Statute & lift the exemption immediately.
http://www.governor.virginia.gov/Contact/email_form.html
This is from the VDOT website-------http://www.virginiadot.org/comtravel/hov-rulesfaq.asp
quote----
What happens on July 1, 2006 when the hybrid vehicle rule expires?
There is no guarantee that HOV exemptions for inherently low-emission vehicles or hybrids will continue. Exemptions to rules pertaining to travel on HOV lanes are being scrutinized, and as more ILEVs and hybrids enter the HOV lanes, there becomes an increased need to examine their exempt status.
The HOV Task Force Report released in August made this recommendation: "Do not extend the exemption for vehicles with clean special fuel license plates set to expire on July 1, 2006." The Federal Highway Administration has advised Virginia that its exemption for hybrid vehicles is in violation of current Federal statute, but Congress is considering legislation that would permit states to allow hybrid vehicles to use HOV lanes. There may have more information soon as various hybrid/HOV bills wind their way through Congress
unquote
If it's illegal NOW, why can't it be stopped NOW.
Ron
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Replies:
Posted By: SpongeBob
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2005 at 12:06pm
The Sponge has consistently been opposed to Smugs driving their High-Breds right alongside space-and-time-conserving HOVer's. However, fair's fair: they spent the money on the car after the state told them they could use it to drive in the HOV lanes solo wearing a special license plate.
The buyers were told (I presume) that the exemption expires on 7-1-06. It's not fair to the Smugs to break that agreement.
However, that does not mean the state needs to issue any NEW clean fuel plates, does it? Why not let the current high-bred owners continue to be Smugs until 7-06, but not let new purchasers of high-breds onto the lanes? One could issue CF plates to all high-breds delivered before March 31, 2005, but none after that date -- regular VA tags only. The only people who would have to be told about the change are the Honda and Toyota dealers and VDOT officials.
OK, what would happen? The Ford and other dealers who are getting ready to debut their high-bred SUV's and pick-ups this summer will scream bloody murder and the state will back down. But it's worth a shot, no?
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Posted By: Wagonman
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2005 at 3:18pm
quote:
Originally posted by SpongeBob
[br]The Sponge has consistently been opposed to Smugs driving their High-Breds right alongside space-and-time-conserving HOVer's. However, fair's fair: they spent the money on the car after the state told them they could use it to drive in the HOV lanes solo wearing a special license plate.
The buyers were told (I presume) that the exemption expires on 7-1-06. It's not fair to the Smugs to break that agreement.
Well, instead of chaning the law they could just start interpreting the law correctly. That would get hybrids out of the HOVs. As per the law:
As used in this section, "clean special fuel" means any product or energy source used to propel a highway vehicle, the use of which, compared to conventional gasoline or reformulated gasoline, results in lower emissions of oxides of nitrogen, volatile organic compounds, carbon monoxide or particulates or any combination thereof. The term includes compressed natural gas, liquefied natural gas, liquefied petroleum gas, hydrogen, hythane (a combination of compressed natural gas and hydrogen), and electricity.
How can a car that runs on conventional gasoline or reformulated gasoline(as hybrids do) be cleaner than itself? Hybrid owners will argue that it uses electricity too, but do you plug it in at night? No. When it runs out of fuel you go to a gas station. The electricity it uses is converted energy that came from the gasoline you fueled up with. The way they are interpretting the law any car should get clean fuel plates. Most cars use electricity to provide a spark to propel them. Give them clean fuel plates too! They also ignored the "lower emissions" part since we know the Honda hybrids are dirtier than other conventional cars.
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Posted By: SpongeBob
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2005 at 4:55pm
Agreed, agreed, WagonMan. They ain't as clean as they claim.
But the owners aren't at fault for buying hybrids, and the dealers aren't wrong for trying to sell them. And the committee or commission that recommended free HOV use as a sales incentive was only trying to help the environment.
OK, so it worked too well. I hold it ain't fair to tell a man one thing and then change it before you said you would. My solution above solves at least some of the immediate congestion problem and strikes me as fair. Anyone got a better idea?
(And what worries me is, if they stop the exception immediately, the papers will be full of sad stories about people who "did the right thing" and bought a hybrid, only to (surprise surprise!!) lose the best benefit of all 18 months early because of whining, greedy carpool jerks.)
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Posted By: Road Warrior
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2005 at 5:47pm
quote:
Originally posted by SpongeBob
[br]Snip...
Anyone got a better idea?
Snip
How about beginning the HOV hours 30 minutes earlier on each end so that they begin at 5:30am in the morning and 3:00pm in the afternoon?
While some of the congestion is a direct result of the number of hybrids now using the HOV, the other problem are the non-carpooling drivers who jump on at 5:45am or 3:15pm knowing that they cannot make it to the end of the HOV within 15 minutes but do so anyway, thereby causing needless backups for those of us who are HOV compliant.
Northbound drivers cannot exit until they get to Springfield and even then some of them do not exit because they know there is better than even chance that there is no State Trooper in the HOV lanes inside the Beltway. And I won't even begin to talk about the Southbound lanes in the afternoon.
Just suffice to say that this is a thought on another way to provide some modicum of relief.
John
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Posted By: ScarletLSG
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2005 at 9:18pm
Just two more months ... that's all this "smug" asks for!!!
ScarletLSG
quote:
Originally posted by SpongeBob
[br]Agreed, agreed, WagonMan. They ain't as clean as they claim.
But the owners aren't at fault for buying hybrids, and the dealers aren't wrong for trying to sell them. And the committee or commission that recommended free HOV use as a sales incentive was only trying to help the environment.
OK, so it worked too well. I hold it ain't fair to tell a man one thing and then change it before you said you would. My solution above solves at least some of the immediate congestion problem and strikes me as fair. Anyone got a better idea?
(And what worries me is, if they stop the exception immediately, the papers will be full of sad stories about people who "did the right thing" and bought a hybrid, only to (surprise surprise!!) lose the best benefit of all 18 months early because of whining, greedy carpool jerks.)
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Posted By: JiggaJynx
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2005 at 8:38am
quote:
Originally posted by Road Warrior
While some of the congestion is a direct result of the number of hybrids now using the HOV, the other problem are the non-carpooling drivers who jump on at 5:45am or 3:15pm knowing that they cannot make it to the end of the HOV within 15 minutes but do so anyway, thereby causing needless backups for those of us who are HOV compliant.
John
Fifteen whole minutes? When I get to Horner around 6 am, I nearly get flattened as I cross to the slug lines by all the reckless solo drivers screaming through the lot to get onto the HOV ramp. It has been extremely gratifying, though, to see the Staties at the Horner exit this week in the afternoons. Hope they mix it up and go to other exits just to keep things exciting. I hear the Occoquan exit could use some violator busting.
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Posted By: NoSUV
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2005 at 10:02am
Originally posted by RobertLangDirect
[br]Did my part and sent the gov an e-mail.
Make HOV-3 -- REALLY THREE and remember too -- KEEP IT FREE.
Did my part as well asking for it to be extended. Hybrids in regular lanes unlikely to improve the OVERALL commute. Those in the regular lanes don't need more cars in there!
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Posted By: ronin718
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2005 at 11:05am
Ahhhh, but hybrids will get better mileage in the regular lanes than in the HOV lane because they get better mileage under city-type driving (stop-n-go, slower speeds) than highway. There's the irony and the hyprocrisy. Hybrid drivers are saying they're buying their cars to get better mileage, yet they use them in the mode that gets the worst mileage for their car. If they really want to get better mileage, drive them at the slower speeds in the regular lanes.
Come on, NoSUV, admit it. It has nothing to do with the environment. It's really for the "me-first, I can get there faster, drive in the HOV lane" advantage.
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Posted By: ronsray
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2005 at 9:05pm
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Have you done your part & emailed the Governor Yet ???[:)][:)][:)][:)][:)][:)][?]
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Posted By: ronsray
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2005 at 9:10pm
from the Washington Post chat:
Woodbridge, Va.: Ms. Morris: Could you specifically address the question of eliminating the exemption prior to 2006? It was asked earlier but your answer did not seem to address that.
Is there at all a possibility that the exemption could be repealed prior to the Jul 2006 expiration? Thanks
Joan Morris: The General Assembly which goes into session next week would have to introduce/pass legislation for it to happen before july 2006. Contact your delegate or senator! And the Governor
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Posted By: defender
Date Posted: 30 Jan 2005 at 10:20pm
quote:
Originally posted by ronsray
[br]Have you done your part & emailed the Governor Yet ???[:)][:)][:)][:)][:)][:)][?]
Thanks to various writers, there have been several articles on the breakdown of the HOV lanes in Northern Virginia. Most noted what thousands of car-pooling Northern Virginia commuters already know; if you want to legally cheat HOV-3, buy a so-called hybrid. If you want to defeat HOV, you may also buy a hybrid.
The legislators may have intended well by allowing hundreds small, “clean fuel” cars onto the HOV-3. However, the hundreds have multiplied to be thousands and now include full-sized LPG fueled trucks, CNG fueled Crown Victorias, and conventionally fueled, Ford Excape SUVs. Almost to a vehicle, these run through a legal loophole and onto the HOV-3 with “room for five, while ridden by one.”
This week, we are at a critical point. Our Legislators, particularly those who chair or sit on transportation sub-committees, need to understand how bad the daily commute has become, and why HOV is critically ill. The sickness is rooted in one cause. However, we have a simple and effective cure.
The Virginia Legislators needs to excise the cancer from the HOV. They need to END ALL EXCEPTIONS THAT ALLOW SOLO DRIVERS IN THESE LANES. Overnight, we will gain a potential to move 4,000 additional commuters without putting another car on the road. Ending the exceptions will decrease overall pollution by putting multiple commuters in the existing clean fuel vehicles. It will relieve HOV congestion. Best yet, it will do this at no additional cost to the taxpayer.
Fuller Underwood II
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Posted By: cthomas25
Date Posted: 31 Jan 2005 at 3:24pm
Someone on another forum posted the message below. I hope they don't mind me posting it on under this topic. [:I] I think it's important for everyone to see this. [8)]
Del. Michele Mcquigg has posted a survey on her web site about the issue. Let your feelings be known at: http://www.mcquigg.com/survey_hybridhov.asp
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Posted By: Man of Reason
Date Posted: 18 Feb 2005 at 2:06pm
quote:
Originally posted by ronin718
[br]Ahhhh, but hybrids will get better mileage in the regular lanes than in the HOV lane because they get better mileage under city-type driving (stop-n-go, slower speeds) than highway. There's the irony and the hyprocrisy.
Ronin718 must be a zealot disciple of Waggonman and his "but hybrid emissions are worse than non-hybrids" cult....btw Waggonman, I went to get my emissions checked for my Civic-hybrid a couple of weeks ago…The gas station sent me away…said there isn’t enough emissions to register on the test and because of this the State doesn’t require it for hybrids (not sure if I trust it but that's what they said) …
I think you better fire off another letter to Warner about this[:)]
Ronin718, Honda's do better in highway driving vs. stop in go/lower speeds...It's the Toyotas who do better in stop and go traffic....which using your logic means Honda's shoudl stay in the hov lanes. Thanks for your support[:)]
Waggonman, fyi here’s the latest from the American Council for Energy-Efficient Economy….You have tunnel vision with this emission thing which is why your perceived fullproof argument against hybrids falls apart …It’s the “Kwan” that matters; the combination of emissions and fuel economy….That's what separates hybrids...not to mention the technologies spawned from increased demand that will eventually transfer to conventional vehicles down the road..
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6969339/
Top 5
1. Honda Civic GX
2. Honda Insight
3. Toyota Prius
4. Honda Civic Hybrid
5. Toyota Corolla (non-hybrid)
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Posted By: Wagonman
Date Posted: 19 Feb 2005 at 10:56pm
quote:
Originally posted by Man of Reason
[br]
Waggonman, I went to get my emissions checked for my Civic-hybrid a couple of weeks ago…The gas station sent me away…said there isn’t enough emissions to register on the test and because of this the State doesn’t require it for hybrids (not sure if I trust it but that's what they said) …
I think you better fire off another letter to Warner about this[:)]
Waggonman, fyi here’s the latest from the American Council for Energy-Efficient Economy….You have tunnel vision with this emission thing which is why your perceived fullproof argument against hybrids falls apart …It’s the “Kwan” that matters; the combination of emissions and fuel economy….That's what separates hybrids...not to mention the technologies spawned from increased demand that will eventually transfer to conventional vehicles down the road..
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6969339/
Top 5
1. Honda Civic GX
2. Honda Insight
3. Toyota Prius
4. Honda Civic Hybrid
5. Toyota Corolla (non-hybrid)
Your gas station attendant is making stuff up. The reason that hybrids don't get tested is that they'd require a totally different test and the state hasn't spent the time and money figuring one out yet. Hybrids are(were) such a small percentage of cars that it isn't a priority. Same thing goes for diesel cars. Or do you think its because diesel cars also put out so little pollution that it wouldn't register?
As per your comments about the ACEEE. You need to read their methodology in order to understand their ratings. They give equal weight to greenhouses gases as compared to all other air pollutants combined. This skews the results heavily towards high mileage cars. We can estimate the costs associated with regulated air pollutants, we can't with greenhouses gases. Assuming that greenhouse gases will cost as much as all other air pollutants combined is highly suspect in my opinion. In other words, their ratings are crap! Is that what "kwan" means, crap? Just image how much further ahead the CNG car would be is mileage wasn't so unfairly weighted.
I have been in contact with Jim Kliesch of the ACEEE and here is a quote. "So while we're not intentionally hiding the fact that the non-PZEV version of the Civic Hybrid is a bin 9 vehicle, I agree, Honda should be taken to task for making such a fuel efficient vehicle with mediocre tailpipe emissions."
So in the words of someone from the ACEEE, the Civic Hybrid has MEDIOCRE emissions! Something else you may find interesting, bin 9 is going to be eliminated at the end of model year 2006. That means, the Civic hybrid and Insight that are currently sold in Virginia would be too dirty to be sold in 2007. Doesn't that tell you something? Is these cars are so deserving of clean fuel plates how is it that they'd be considered too dirty to sell in only a couple years?
I also admit to your accusation of having tunnel visions with the emissions ratings. I think any car that gets "clean fuel" plates should be clean. Call me crazy!
One last thought, going by the ACEEE green scores do the hybrids all have scores more than triple all other cars? How about double? Nope! So why should they be in the HOVs when their "cleanness" doesn't make up for not having the required 2 or 3 passengers?
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