Hybrids, Exemption, et al.
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Forum Name: Hybrids
Forum Description: This area is devoted to the discussion of hybrid vehicles and their impact to the HOV.
URL: http://www.slug-lines.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1443
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Topic: Hybrids, Exemption, et al.
Posted By: billybob
Subject: Hybrids, Exemption, et al.
Date Posted: 07 Jan 2005 at 1:36pm
I did a lot of research before buying my hybrid. And yes, the key reason for my purchase was the ability to drive in HOV to work. It has shaved nearly 50% from my commuting time - thus improving my quality of life. Thank God that in America, we still get choices, and isn't it great that at the same time I can save fuel, too!
I would pick up slugs, but apparently nobody is interested in a slug line to/from Stringfellow off of I-66, so that wasn't an option for me. I carpooled off-and-on for about 3 years, but my schedule is so variable that it doesn't make good sense.
But to correct some misconceptions, visit the following web sites:
http://dmv.state.va.us/webdoc/citizen/vehicles/cleanspecialfuel.asp
http://www.virginiadot.org/comtravel/hov-rulesfaq.asp
Interestingly, the DMV specifically told me that the new Escape and Accord were not eligible for the Clean Fuel plates, and thus not eligible for HOV1. They said the same would be true of the upcoming Lexus. The Honda dealer I bought my Civic from said they had a lot of very upset Accord buyers who are not able to get CF tags. I'd be curious if the Escape lady above is on a CF plate.
According to the DMV and a friend I have at EPA, the aim is to reduce emissions. Congestion creates emissions, and will have to be reviewed in the future. I fully expect the exemption to be lifted in 2006 - and figured that into my purchase. Those of you counting on an immediate revokation, however, obviously don't understand the workings of a beauracracy. It's done, and nothing will happen beofre July, 2006. Period.
But what about going the other way -- the pollution created in the traffic jams is from NON-SULEV's. How about we make them clean fuel lanes regardless of the number of passengers? That way, when there was a back up, there would be ZERO pollution from congestion, versus what we have today - monster trucks spewing filth all over the place - even if it is on behalf of 2 or 3 people.. All hail the CFV Lanes! Would, incidentally, also be a lot easier to police for plates than people..
Thanks for indulging me.
Not a sermon, just a thought.
Carry on whining.
-Billybob.
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Replies:
Posted By: MDC
Date Posted: 07 Jan 2005 at 4:39pm
billybob,
Don't you know that almost every car on the road that is fairly recent has very low emissions? Many have lower emissions than most of the hybrids with their fancy CF plates on the road today, especially the hybrids from 2+ years ago.
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Posted By: billybob
Date Posted: 07 Jan 2005 at 4:53pm
Ah yes.. But..
How many of those achieve 50+ MPG regularly (if driven properly)?
How many of those emit NOTHING at a stop because they turn off at idle?
How many of those do you regularly see traveling in the HOV lanes?
I see a whole lotta SUV's friend.
Cheers.
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Posted By: n715tm
Date Posted: 07 Jan 2005 at 5:06pm
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The Ford Escape Hybrid is approved for Clean fuel plates since 12/6/04. I own a Escape Hybrid and per the DMV my plates will be here next week
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Posted By: billybob
Date Posted: 07 Jan 2005 at 5:11pm
Sorry 'bout that... I was looking just before that. I still feel bad for all those guys that shelled out $30K+ for the Accords.....
They should add the Escape to the online list at the link I provided
-Billybob
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Posted By: billybob
Date Posted: 07 Jan 2005 at 5:29pm
Sorry 'bout that... I was looking just before that. I still feel bad for all those guys that shelled out $30K+ for the Accords.....
They should add the Escape to the online list at the link I provided
-Billybob
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Posted By: Dick C
Date Posted: 08 Jan 2005 at 2:54am
I'm a hybrid owner who regularly uses 66 for my commute to the Pentagon. It has reduced my commute time by nearly half. I'm very upset by the proposals to stop the exemption allowing the use of HOV lanes by hybrid owners. What a lot of people do not understand about the hybrid vehicles is the Honda Insight, Civic Hybrid, and Toyota Prius all have an SULEV rating from the EPA. What is that? To qualify for the SULEV rating, a vehicle must produce less than 1/30th (a 97 percent reduction) the emissions of the current federal standard for some pollutants. So, in addition to averaging around 45 miles per gallon, I'm helping to get rid of greenhouse gasses -- the largest cause of global warming.
One auto testing organization found fewer pollutants in the exhaust of a hybrid than were in the ambient air! So, yes we get the privilege of using the HOV lane because we don't pollute in the same way the other cars do. People ought to be glad I bought a $23,000 Civic, but instead, most of them give me the finger when I ride in HOV.
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Posted By: n715tm
Date Posted: 08 Jan 2005 at 9:51pm
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Do what I do with people that are not mature enough to contain their emotions and have to resort to hand signals. Call the State Police and report their license plate number as an aggressive driver.
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Posted By: Dick C
Date Posted: 09 Jan 2005 at 12:22am
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n715tm... I deduce from your post that you purchased a Ford Escape Hybrid. I looked at one Friday night. $35K is kinda pricey and the fuel economy estimate was only 19 city, 25 highway. That's what I used to get on my Mercedes ML320 SUV I traded in on my Civic. I was surprised too that you are getting clean special fuel plates. The salesman at Ted Britt Ford told me that the Escape, the Accord, and the GMC hybrids weren't going to qualify for the plates because their mileage isn't high enough. Was he wrong?
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Posted By: n715tm
Date Posted: 09 Jan 2005 at 8:11am
I do own a Escape Hybrid. I have the front wheel drive version and paid $28K for it at Sheehy Ford. I was told by the dealer that Mr. Sheehy had been potitioning Mark Warner to allow the American made Escape to be eligible for the Clean Fuel plates.
When I spoke to the DMV last week the confirmed that my truck has been titled as a Hybrid vehicle and the plates should arrive next week. I will update when I actually have the plates in my hand.
As far as the fuel milage goes I am averaging after my 4th tank full of gas 32 mpg. I think California is the only state that mandates a certain mpg must be met. Virginia only cares if it is titled as a Hybrid.
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Posted By: Wagonman
Date Posted: 09 Jan 2005 at 7:00pm
quote:
Originally posted by Dick C
[br]What a lot of people do not understand about the hybrid vehicles is the Honda Insight, Civic Hybrid, and Toyota Prius all have an SULEV rating from the EPA. What is that? To qualify for the SULEV rating, a vehicle must produce less than 1/30th (a 97 percent reduction) the emissions of the current federal standard for some pollutants. So, in addition to averaging around 45 miles per gallon, I'm helping to get rid of greenhouse gasses -- the largest cause of global warming.
I suggest you check under your hood for your true emissions rating. The Civic hybrid is sold in two versions and if you bought yours here, I seriously doubt you have a SULEV rating. Another thing you need to remember is that the SULEV rating is a California creation and the car is tested when using California CARB gasoline which is much cleaner than the gas here. Unless you are importing California gas and have the Civic with California emission you are not producing 97% less pollution than an "average" car.
In fact, if you have the non-California version of the Civic hybrid there are plenty of normal gasoline cars that are cleaner than your car. Honda sells two version of both the Civic and Insight Hybrids. There is only one version of the Prius so people that have them would have a SULEV car, but they aren't running on CARB gas so they wouldn't be 97% cleaner either.
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Posted By: Road Warrior
Date Posted: 10 Jan 2005 at 8:03am
quote:
Originally posted by billybob
[br] Snip...
According to the DMV and a friend I have at EPA, the aim is to reduce emissions. Congestion creates emissions, and will have to be reviewed in the future. Snip...
But what about going the other way -- the pollution created in the traffic jams is from NON-SULEV's. How about we make them clean fuel lanes regardless of the number of passengers? That way, when there was a back up, there would be ZERO pollution from congestion, versus what we have today - monster trucks spewing filth all over the place - even if it is on behalf of 2 or 3 people.. All hail the CFV Lanes! Would, incidentally, also be a lot easier to police for plates than people..
Snip...
-Billybob.
If the intent of the CFV exemption was reduce emissions, does that mean when Ultra-Low Sulfur Diesel comes on the market in 2006, that I will be able to get a CFV exemption?
Or could I get the exemption now if I were exclusively use B100 biodiesel? For those who may not know, biodiesel is made from soybeans or used vegetable oil that is processed to remove the glycerol molecule in the form of glycerin (soap).
I can visit my local Chinese restaurant, take their used cooking oil off their hands (so they do not have to pay someone to haul it away) and after filtering out the glycerin, put it in my tank and drive down the road with virtually no emissions...in fact, if you were to smell the fumes coming out of the tailpipe, it would smell like General Tso's chicken or beef and broccoli.
Scientists believe carbon dioxide is one of the main greenhouse gases contributing to global warming. Neat biodiesel (100% biodiesel) reduces carbon dioxide emissions by more than 75% over petroleum diesel. Using a blend of 20% biodiesel reduces carbon dioxide emissions by 15%.
Biodiesel also produces fewer particulate matter, carbon monoxide, and sulfur dioxide emissions (all air pollutants under the Clean Air Act).
Since biodiesel can be used in conventional diesel engines, the renewable fuel can directly replace petroleum products; reducing the country's dependence on imported oil.
Just something else to think about.
John
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Posted By: dkerley
Date Posted: 10 Jan 2005 at 9:00am
Yum! General Tso's chicken! [:o)]
Dina
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Posted By: 3-For-HOV
Date Posted: 10 Jan 2005 at 9:44am
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There's an article in Nov or Dec's MONEY magazine about a restaurant owner who converted his truck he bought on eBay to run on used frying oil. Depending on where he gets the oil will determine the smell.
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Posted By: Wagonman
Date Posted: 10 Jan 2005 at 7:29pm
quote:
Since biodiesel can be used in conventional diesel engines, the renewable fuel can directly replace petroleum products; reducing the country's dependence on imported oil.
Just something else to think about.
John
Hmmm. I think I know who you are. Do you drive a white Teutonic sedan that recently got a new head unit?
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Posted By: Admin
Date Posted: 11 Jan 2005 at 6:37am
washingtonpost.com
As Hybrid Cars Multiply, So Do Carpooling Gripes
By Steven Ginsberg and Carol Morello
Washington Post Staff Writers
Friday, January 7, 2005; Page A01
A surge in the number of hybrid vehicles has left carpool lanes nearly as congested as the regular lanes they are intended to relieve, a Virginia transportation task force said yesterday.
A detailed study of carpool lanes on Interstate 95 found that the number of hybrids more than tripled between last spring and October. State transportation officials fear that the trend will continue as more hybrids enter the market and more commuters take advantage of an exemption allowing them to ride alone in such vehicles.
The findings reflect the sentiments of carpool-lane users, who have inundated state officials with complaints about increased delays and congestion over the past six months. Many blame hybrids.
"For every two cars, there's one hybrid," said Cora Seballos, who carpools daily from Springfield to the District. "Since September, usually the regular lanes have less traffic" than the carpool lanes. Seballos said she has to leave home a half-hour earlier because of the increased congestion.
On a Web site devoted to slugs, the people who form carpools at set spots so they can use high-occupancy vehicle lanes, the issue has dominated. The forum "Hybrids -- a threat to car pooling?" had drawn more than 11,550 readers at www.slug-lines.com as of yesterday afternoon; only a couple of other forums drew as many as 1,000.
Typical was this posting from a user named Viper: "Whether you look at it as an environmental issue or as a congestion issue, the result is the same -- HOV 3 is three times better than HOV 1 for the situation as a whole. The rule NEEDS to change soon." HOV-3 is the state's designation for a lane requiring three occupants. Viper's "HOV 1" is a smack at solo motorists in carpool lanes.
The hybrid exemption is scheduled to expire in June 2006, and the HOV task force of Virginia transportation officials and experts urged again in its second report yesterday that state leaders not extend it. In 2003, the task force also recommended instituting severe fines and increased police presence to crack down on HOV violators. Fines were raised to as much as $1,000, enforcement was increased and repeat offenders became subject to moving-violation penalties and points on their licenses.
Hybrids use a combination of gas and electric power. Current models get up to 60 miles per gallon and emit considerably smaller amounts of harmful gases than conventional cars. State rules allow owners of the Ford Escape hybrid, Toyota Prius and Honda Civic and Insight to drive solo in carpool lanes.
According to the Electric Drive Transportation Association, the Washington area ranks with California as the country's leading markets for hybrids.
Several car dealers in Northern Virginia said it's because of the HOV exemption. "I'd say 95 percent of the people who buy a Prius say it's to get into HOV," said Jay Taye, sales manager at Ourisman Fairfax Toyota. "They talk about the tax break and the HOV, and once in a while they say they prefer it for the gas mileage as well."
Low-emission vehicles were first allowed to use HOV lanes in 1994 to lessen the region's air pollution, but few drivers took advantage until hybrids were included in 2000. That year, there were 32 cars in all of Virginia with "clean fuel" tags -- a designation necessary for solo commuters to use HOV lanes.
By April 2003, that number had grown to 2,500 in Northern Virginia, and by the end of 2004 the region had 6,800 hybrid vehicles registered with "clean special fuel" plates.
In March, a traffic count on the HOV lanes of I-95 revealed 480 clean fuel vehicles -- about 8 percent of the cars that used the lanes at the time. By October, that count on I-95 more than tripled, to 1,700, 18 percent of all HOV traffic and enough to fill a single highway lane for an hour.
The growth in hybrids has helped increase the number of cars on the lanes to 1,900 an hour, beyond their operating capacity of 1,500 to 1,800 per lane an hour.
The HOV lanes are critical to the region's transportation network in part because they allow bus service to run smoothly. If they become chronically congested, slugs and other carpoolers could resume driving themselves, adding thousands of cars to the region's roads.
State officials released a letter yesterday from the Federal Highway Administration written in December expressing concern about the proliferation of hybrids in HOV lanes. The letter asked Virginia to increase enforcement and pursue other options to cut down on backups. The hybrid exemption is counter to federal law but has been allowed to continue as Congress debates possible revisions.
"In light of this study, I think we have to reevaluate our position," said Del. Brian J. Moran (Alexandria), chairman of the House Democratic Caucus, who backed the hybrid provision as recently as May.
Some dealers consider the end to the HOV perk an inevitable byproduct of the hybrids' success.
"When they first came out, I thought it was a good incentive," said Fernando Lobo, sales manager at Bill Page Honda near Falls Church. "Now everybody's trying to make hybrids. When they sell at volume, I knew that one of these days the HOV lanes wouldn't function anymore as HOV lanes."
© 2005 The Washington Post Company
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Posted By: Road Warrior
Date Posted: 11 Jan 2005 at 7:19am
quote:
Originally posted by Wagonman
[br]quote:
Since biodiesel can be used in conventional diesel engines, the renewable fuel can directly replace petroleum products; reducing the country's dependence on imported oil.
Just something else to think about.
John
Hmmm. I think I know who you are. Do you drive a white Teutonic sedan that recently got a new head unit?
Give the man a ceeeeegaaaaaaarrrrrrr and cupie doll!!!! I filled up again at the B20 pump...I got 671 miles out of the 14 gals of B20 in the last tank with lots of stop 'n go traffic. Maybe we can have mini-GTG at the pump one day..[;)]
John
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Posted By: eniiler
Date Posted: 11 Jan 2005 at 9:32am
Dick: I'm a reporter at National Public Radio and would like to talk to you about your hybrid, and your commute. Please call or email
Thanks,
Eric Niiler
eniiler@comcast.net
301-657-8842
quote:
Originally posted by Dick C
[br]I'm a hybrid owner who regularly uses 66 for my commute to the Pentagon. It has reduced my commute time by nearly half. I'm very upset by the proposals to stop the exemption allowing the use of HOV lanes by hybrid owners. What a lot of people do not understand about the hybrid vehicles is the Honda Insight, Civic Hybrid, and Toyota Prius all have an SULEV rating from the EPA. What is that? To qualify for the SULEV rating, a vehicle must produce less than 1/30th (a 97 percent reduction) the emissions of the current federal standard for some pollutants. So, in addition to averaging around 45 miles per gallon, I'm helping to get rid of greenhouse gasses -- the largest cause of global warming.
One auto testing organization found fewer pollutants in the exhaust of a hybrid than were in the ambient air! So, yes we get the privilege of using the HOV lane because we don't pollute in the same way the other cars do. People ought to be glad I bought a $23,000 Civic, but instead, most of them give me the finger when I ride in HOV.
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Posted By: Max_28756
Date Posted: 11 Jan 2005 at 10:21am
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I'm sure we all agree that Hybrid cars, regardless of what fuel they use, are a good thing. The issue at hand is they need to carry 3 in the vehicle. If they get better fuel economy in stop and go traffic with the electric motor starting, then they would do all that much better for the environment in the regular lanes. Stop by a commuter lot, pick up some riders and do your part to relieve congestion. Be part of the solution, not part of the problem!
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Posted By: Wagonman
Date Posted: 11 Jan 2005 at 11:04am
quote:
Originally posted by eniiler
[br]Dick: I'm a reporter at National Public Radio and would like to talk to you about your hybrid, and your commute. Please call or email
Thanks,
Eric Niiler
eniiler@comcast.net
301-657-8842
If you do a report make sure you check under his hood for his true emissions rating before continuing the distribution of misleading info. I'd like to see the facts set straight in the media for once. I'm not trying to call Dick C a liar, his car dealer probably fed him a line of bull. Civic hybrids sold here aren't SULEV rated.
http://automobiles.honda.com/models/specifications_full_specs.asp?ModelName=Civic+Hybrid
If you read the above link you can see the two different emissions ratings depending on the market the car is sold in. The ones here are ULEV, not SULEV(or the new AT-PZEV). There are a lot of regular cars and SUVs rated ULEV.
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Posted By: Road Warrior
Date Posted: 11 Jan 2005 at 12:49pm
quote:
Originally posted by eniiler
[br]Dick: I'm a reporter at National Public Radio and would like to talk to you about your hybrid, and your commute. Please call or email
Thanks,
Eric Niiler
eniiler@comcast.net
301-657-8842
quote:
Originally posted by Dick C
[br]I'm a hybrid owner who regularly uses 66 for my commute to the Pentagon. It has reduced my commute time by nearly half. I'm very upset by the proposals to stop the exemption allowing the use of HOV lanes by hybrid owners. What a lot of people do not understand about the hybrid vehicles is the Honda Insight, Civic Hybrid, and Toyota Prius all have an SULEV rating from the EPA. What is that? To qualify for the SULEV rating, a vehicle must produce less than 1/30th (a 97 percent reduction) the emissions of the current federal standard for some pollutants. So, in addition to averaging around 45 miles per gallon, I'm helping to get rid of greenhouse gasses -- the largest cause of global warming.
One auto testing organization found fewer pollutants in the exhaust of a hybrid than were in the ambient air! So, yes we get the privilege of using the HOV lane because we don't pollute in the same way the other cars do. People ought to be glad I bought a $23,000 Civic, but instead, most of them give me the finger when I ride in HOV.
If you are doing a story on LEVs, how about including a comparison of current emission levels from a hybrid traveling at 65 mph and the emission levels coming from a diesel powered car using B100 (100% biodiesel) traveling at 65 mph. Biodiesel is good for the environment, is a renewable resource and also reduces carbon dioxide emissions by more than 75% over dino diesel.
In 2006 when EPA mandated ultra-low sulfur diesel is predominent in the market, emissions from diesel engines will be near to what the current LEV standards are today.
To plagiarize someone else here...Not a sermon...just a suggestion.
John
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Posted By: Dick C
Date Posted: 11 Jan 2005 at 2:59pm
I bought my hybrid before I began working somewhere that HOV would even facilitate my commute to work. (I bought my car 1/18/03.) Then I changed jobs in March of 2003 to someplace immediately adjacent to I-66 at exit 71 (Glebe Road). I used to have to drive through normal traffic from Burke, where I was living at the time, to 66, which often took 45 minutes! Then it would take another 20-25 minutes from I-66/495 to exit 71. In August of last year, I changed jobs again. This time, I am working in the Pentagon. I also moved in May of last year to Chantilly, just down the road from the Stringfellow Road HOV entrance/exit off 66. I bought my house specifically in that location because of its proximity to 66 so that I could make full use of HOV to go to work.
I've never seen any slug lines anywhere near there although I suspect there must be one nearby. As the time for the termination of HOV rights for hybrids draws near, I will either start a carpool and continue to drive each day (I have parking in the Pentagon City parking garage) or I'll pick up slugs; however, I WILL NOT give up my use of HOV! It is too critical to my lifestyle and keeping other commitments to family to get home as early as possible each day.
One thought that would cut down on the number of hybrids using HOV... I was NOT aware until I did some research in light of the proposals to do away with the hybrid exemption that Virginia mandates that hybrids using the HOV lanes MUST have CF plates. I did not get them for my car as I had personalized Vietnam Veteran plates. Now that I am aware that the CF plates are required to use HOV, I am giving up my current plates and getting the CF ones. I've noticed though that probably 4 of every 10 hybrids I see on 66 each morning DO NOT have CF plates. In fact, I was stopped once by a Fairfax County police officer when getting on 66 at Stringfellow because I was in the car alone and he couldn't tell it was a hybrid because I had no CF plates. I showed him the registration and told him about the hybrid trim placard on the rear and he let me go, but never informed me that the CF plates were legally required to permit me to ride HOV.
I'm getting over my initial anger at the proposal to stop my HOV privileges... I'll just do what everyone else has to do... get other riders.
Dick C
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Posted By: shelbybrynn
Date Posted: 11 Jan 2005 at 3:23pm
quote:
Originally posted by Dick C
[br]I'll just do what everyone else has to do... get other riders.
Dick C
That's exactly the point Dick, you should be picking up riders because it is HOV-3, not HOV-1. I think the hybrid cars are great but I don't think they meet the criteria for utilizing the HOV lanes. They may reduce a bit of the emissions, but they are not getting any more cars off the road. In fact, they are actually creating more emissions because there are more cars on the road now. Just pick up some slugs or become a slug and everyone will get where they need to go and we'll have less traffic!!
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Posted By: Dick C
Date Posted: 11 Jan 2005 at 3:56pm
Shelby:
I don't think we would have the problem we do now if HOV use had not been offered to hybrid owners in this area. As others have probably said, the tax break for the purchase of a hybrid was "pocket change" in the overall scheme of things. It was the use of HOV that made these vehicles so popular initially and account for so many of them being on the roads. Now that fuel costs have risen, they have made hybrids even more appealing.
I did look for slugs somewhere around the entrance to 66 at Stringfellow road (only two block from my house), but haven't found any. It will be a major inconvenience to go hunting for them, and, unlike being able to pick them up on Guinea or Braddock roads when I commuted from Burke, there isn't any place I know of where I get on at 66 where I can find folks looking for rides. I'll probably end up advertising for riders at the Pentagon.
It's true that there are probably more cars on 66 each day because of the hybrid exemption, but, because of their extremely low emisions, I dare say that the pollution problem has probably not become worse as a result of more cars on the road. That's not to say that I haven't experienced some frustration on 66 myself, however. I get frustrated with people who plunk a kid in the baby seat as their other occupant so they can qualify for HOV-2. I guess that's legal. But I see at least 10 of these every day. I also get tired of commercial trucks in the HOV lane, but, they too are legal, I guess, if they have at least two people on board. It just seems sometimes that there are as many of them as there are cars in the HOV lanes.
I thought about taking Metro to work (I am handicapped and not driving would actually be nice), but I have to go to doctor's appointments so often and can't find parking many times at the orange line metro stations that, with my hybrid car, it has become much more convenient to drive. Now, to make matters worse, Metro is planning for fewer seats on cars in the future so that more people can be accomodated -- most of them standing. I can't stay on my feet that long without severe pain, but my handicap is not severe enough to get a handicap pass that guarantees me a seat on metro although it does get me a placard for handicapped parking. Even if I did take Metro, by the time I drive to the Metro station from Chantilly, pay for parking, and pay for roundtrip fare, it is actually cheaper for me to drive my hybrid car every day! (Especially since I am averaging 43 mpg combined city/highway.)
I guess we could end up doing what California did and go to a lottery system for HOV passes for the HOV vehicles. Or do the car/van pool/sluggers want hybrids out of the HOV system en masse?
Dick
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Posted By: USA
Date Posted: 11 Jan 2005 at 5:55pm
quote:
That's exactly the point Dick, you should be picking up riders because it is HOV-3, not HOV-1. I think the hybrid cars are great but I don't think they meet the criteria for utilizing the HOV lanes. They may reduce a bit of the emissions, but they are not getting any more cars off the road. In fact, they are actually creating more emissions because there are more cars on the road now. Just pick up some slugs or become a slug and everyone will get where they need to go and we'll have less traffic!!
He lives off I-66, which is HOV-2, not HOV-3.
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Posted By: NviroNnginear
Date Posted: 11 Jan 2005 at 9:20pm
Two quickies...
1) let's not get carried away with "hybrid" envy. The real issues with congestion are 1) increasing population, 2) Metro DC becoming more than just a "government" workplace, and 3) insufficient investments in transportation alternatives (see NYC, for example).
2) Under the past few energy bills, there is a provision for generating tax incentives for biodiesel manufacturing. The net effect is that there will be a glut of glycerine produced and a limited amount of end products it can go into, resulting in a collapse of prices associated with several major consumer product categories. net result, a significant loss of American jobs.
Weight the information as you wish.
PS As a HOV1er on Dulles Toll Road and Rt66, I see more single passenger violators (far outnumbering the significant enforcement efforts) than hybrids. But thats "virtual data", kinda like some of the data used in the Washington Post piece about "hybrid-rage".
Peace out!
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Posted By: Road Warrior
Date Posted: 12 Jan 2005 at 7:26am
quote:
Originally posted by Dick C
[br]Snip
Or do the car/van pool/sluggers want hybrids out of the HOV system en masse?
Dick
I am not opposed to hybrids. However, it would make it better for all if hybrid drivers picked up slugs like the rest of us have to do. If the rules were to be changed, hybrids would only require two people to qualify and that would make an improvement in the current situation. This is scenario is easier for the hybrid owners on the 95 corridor to do than it is for the 66 hybrid owners.
Case in point. While sitting in the normal morning backup getting past the Rt123 entrance ramp on the Purple Heart Bridge this morning, I counted 25 cars either getting into the HOV or sitting in the back up. Of the 25 cars, there were 13 hybrids, of which only one had two people in it (probably a husband and wife). That means there were six additional cars that could have been sitting at the commuter lot.
I also think that a change in the hours of HOV restrictions (beginning at 5:30am versus 6:00am) is in order, but that is for another discussion.
John
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Posted By: ScarletLSG
Date Posted: 12 Jan 2005 at 8:10pm
And tonight around 5:00 p.m. I counted a total of 6 hybrids in the 95 South HOV lanes between Springfield and Dumfries. On the other hand, I counted 22 violators. 8 were driving SUVs, 10 were driving 4 door commuter type cars, 2 were driving 4 door luxury cars, 1 was driving a truck and FINALLY, 1 was driving an Audi TT ... TWO SEATER. None were pulled over. All gambled and won. Not tough to do when enforcement is as minimal as it is.
ScarletLSG
>>John wrote: ... ... on the Purple Heart Bridge this morning, I counted 25 cars either getting into the HOV or sitting in the back up. Of the 25 cars, there were 13 hybrids ... ...
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Posted By: MDC
Date Posted: 12 Jan 2005 at 8:36pm
quote:
Originally posted by ScarletLSG
And tonight around 5:00 p.m. I counted a total of 6 hybrids in the 95 South HOV lanes between Springfield and Dumfries. On the other hand, I counted 22 violators. 8 were driving SUVs, 10 were driving 4 door commuter type cars, 2 were driving 4 door luxury cars, 1 was driving a truck and FINALLY, 1 was driving an Audi TT ... TWO SEATER. None were pulled over. All gambled and won. Not tough to do when enforcement is as minimal as it is.
ScarletLSG
This is B.S. There's little chance you passed/were passed by that number of HOV legal cars between Springfield and Dumfries. Every 4th car is a hybrid at 5PM, and maybe 1 in 10-15 are violators.
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Posted By: Wagonman
Date Posted: 12 Jan 2005 at 10:53pm
quote:
Originally posted by NviroNnginear
2) Under the past few energy bills, there is a provision for generating tax incentives for biodiesel manufacturing. The net effect is that there will be a glut of glycerine produced and a limited amount of end products it can go into, resulting in a collapse of prices associated with several major consumer product categories. net result, a significant loss of American jobs.
Explain to me the how the loss of American jobs will result from a lower commodity price on glycerine? Its like saying steel will be cheaper to make, so car manufacturers will lose jobs. It usually works the other way around, cheaper steel more profit for the car makers(or lower car prices and higher sales). Whoever makes the commodity usually gets hurt by a price collapse not the end user, but with biodiesel production the farmers(the producers) will make money on the part that goes into biodiesel and the animal feed. Anyway, whatever is spent on biodiesel means less spent on foreign oil. It is better to keep the money here than sending it out of the country.
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Posted By: Wagonman
Date Posted: 12 Jan 2005 at 11:09pm
quote:
Originally posted by ScarletLSG
[br]And tonight around 5:00 p.m. I counted a total of 6 hybrids in the 95 South HOV lanes between Springfield and Dumfries. On the other hand, I counted 22 violators. 8 were driving SUVs, 10 were driving 4 door commuter type cars, 2 were driving 4 door luxury cars, 1 was driving a truck and FINALLY, 1 was driving an Audi TT ... TWO SEATER. None were pulled over. All gambled and won. Not tough to do when enforcement is as minimal as it is.
The Audi TT is legally a 4 seater. It has a backseat and there could be a person in it without you ever seeing them. I'll admit it would be tight, but its possible(child seat?). Also, aren't you driving? How do you keep and accurate count and deal with tinted windows and not getting a good view inside SUVs?
Since we keep getting all of these informal surveys I want to repeat what some hybrid defenders used to tell people when they counted hybrid cars and complained. Personal observations are unscientific and get a survey with real numbers before you make conclusions. Then come back and we'll listen.
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Posted By: ScarletLSG
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2005 at 6:38am
Not B.S. Maybe yesterday was an anomaly ... but I rode in the right lane at between 55-60 mph, the entire ride. I didn't even TRY to count those that passed me with tinted windows. As Wagonman stated, personal observations are completely unscientific, but I assure you I'm not making up my count. I had planned to count starting at Springfield and kept tick marks for each I saw. To most, I waggled my finger and most of those .... LAUGHED. I will say that after the waggle, a few of them exited at the next available exit.
>>This is B.S. There's little chance you passed/were passed by that number of HOV legal cars between Springfield and Dumfries. Every 4th car is a hybrid at 5PM, and maybe 1 in 10-15 are violators.
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Posted By: wdossel
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2005 at 7:37am
quote:
Originally posted by ScarletLSG
[br]Not B.S. Maybe yesterday was an anomaly ... but I rode in the right lane at between 55-60 mph, the entire ride. I didn't even TRY to count those that passed me with tinted windows. As Wagonman stated, personal observations are completely unscientific, but I assure you I'm not making up my count. I had planned to count starting at Springfield and kept tick marks for each I saw. To most, I waggled my finger and most of those .... LAUGHED. I will say that after the waggle, a few of them exited at the next available exit.
>>This is B.S. There's little chance you passed/were passed by that number of HOV legal cars between Springfield and Dumfries. Every 4th car is a hybrid at 5PM, and maybe 1 in 10-15 are violators.
Well, if the next exit was Horner there was a kindly State Trooper waiting to greet them with open (arms/ticket book)...
- Will
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Posted By: MDC
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2005 at 7:52pm
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If you said it was close to 6PM, then I'd believe you. But at 5PM there are few violators. There's no way in the world that you were passed by a couple of hybrids, and over a dozen violators, at 5PM. Not possible.
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Posted By: ScarletLSG
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2005 at 9:17pm
I can assure you that I am not making it up.
quote:
Originally posted by MDC
[br]If you said it was close to 6PM, then I'd believe you. But at 5PM there are few violators. There's no way in the world that you were passed by a couple of hybrids, and over a dozen violators, at 5PM. Not possible.
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Posted By: Bob
Date Posted: 18 Jan 2005 at 1:50pm
In case you didn't catch the Washington Post editorial on Sunday in which they advocate ending the HOV exemption for hybrids.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A12607-2005Jan15.html
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Posted By: getmehome pweeze
Date Posted: 18 Jan 2005 at 3:38pm
Thanks Bob. DAMN THE HYBRIDS!! I passed 5 in a flipping row this morning.
:'}
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Posted By: Dick C
Date Posted: 18 Jan 2005 at 3:56pm
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I really get tired of this "damn the hybrids" attitude! This morning, I was followed for 7 miles in the HOV lane of I-66 outside the beltway by an older maroon-colored Honda Accord with a single occupant. He shamelessly rode my bumper in my Civic Hybrid and not a single cop was anywhere in sight. He continued on 66 inside the beltway and I was certain that someone would spot him, but NO. Not only was he there by himself, but I was passed by seven other vehicles all with single occupants and none were hybrids. One had diplomatic plates... I guess he can do whatever he chooses. But at 8:10 a.m. the single woman in the older green Civic... the guy in his Chevrolet Malibu... the guy in the maroon Grand Prix (VA tags H82DIT), among others, shouldn't have been there! No law enforcement people anywhere and nobody complaining about the people who flaunt the law... all anybody complains about is us hybrid drivers....
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Posted By: ronin718
Date Posted: 18 Jan 2005 at 4:35pm
Dick, did you buy your hybrid for the HOV exemption? If so, there's you answer. While your typical HOV violator cruises the lanes knowing that he/she could be popped for being stupid, so their numbers remain semi-limited, hybrid drivers running solo clog up the HOV lanes smugly knowing they can't be touched, and their numbers are increasing. And since hybrids are driving in the HOV contrary to Federal law, it ruffles more feathers of the truly law-abiding HOV driver.
The point so many slugs in this forum are trying to make is if hybrid drivers are going to be driving in the lanes anyways, why can't they do the right thing and pick up some riders? Hybrids supposedly get their best mileage in stop-and-go traffic, so why do they need to be in the free-flowing HOV lanes? Take the hybrid back into the traffic lanes and take advantage of the enhanced MPG you (collectively) love to flaunt in the faces of SUV and other drivers.
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Posted By: Dick C
Date Posted: 18 Jan 2005 at 5:07pm
quote:
Originally posted by ronin718
[br]Dick, did you buy your hybrid for the HOV exemption? If so, there's you answer. While your typical HOV violator cruises the lanes knowing that he/she could be popped for being stupid, so their numbers remain semi-limited, hybrid drivers running solo clog up the HOV lanes smugly knowing they can't be touched, and their numbers are increasing. And since hybrids are driving in the HOV contrary to Federal law, it ruffles more feathers of the truly law-abiding HOV driver.
The point so many slugs in this forum are trying to make is if hybrid drivers are going to be driving in the lanes anyways, why can't they do the right thing and pick up some riders? Hybrids supposedly get their best mileage in stop-and-go traffic, so why do they need to be in the free-flowing HOV lanes? Take the hybrid back into the traffic lanes and take advantage of the enhanced MPG you (collectively) love to flaunt in the faces of SUV and other drivers.
Yes, one of the reasons I bought my hybrid was for the HOV exemption. It is also one of the principal reasons I bought my current home last May, two blocks from the Stringfellow Road HOV entrance ramp to I-66. I would be happy to pick up riders as I travel each day to the Pentagon and many commuters go that way; however, there are no slug lines or organized pickup points near the Stringfellow Road entrance to 66, and I would need to go miles out of my way to get to one to pick up riders before I could get on 66 if the exemption for hybrid use of 66 is not extended.
By the way, it is NOT against Federal law for hybrids to use HOV... Virginia was given a special exemption by the Congress as part of a highway bill to permit HOV use by hybrids and that exemption ends in July 06. California was seeking a similar exemption, and was supposed to begin HOV use by hybrids this month, but the Federal Government put the matter on hold pending further study. Virginia must decide whether to seek an extension of the exemption and so far they are not leaning that direction.
I think that the number of hybrid vehicles purchased will drop to nada if the HOV privilege goes away and the automobile manufacturers and dealers know it. I would expect that they, as well as hybrid owners, will lobby HARD for the HOV exemptions for hybrid cars.
If carpool riders hate the hybrids sharing the HOV lanes, perhaps the way to handle the situation is the way that California was going to do it -- by lottery. California was proposing to issue 70,000 window decals to hybrid owners and only those vehicles are supposed to be able to use HOV. Another way that Virginia could cut down on the number of hybrids using HOV is to make them live by the letter of the law... in order to be eligible to use HOV in a hybrid vehicle, the car MUST have Clean Special Fuel plates -- something the dealer never told me when I bought my car in January 2003. Instead, he offered to transfer my personalized Vietnam Vet tags to my car. Technically, I could be given a ticket at anytime by law enforcement as I am using HOV illegally. To ensure I am within the letter of the law, I have just purchased CF plates. One other way that Virginia could solve the problem would be to make certain HOV lanes hybrid-only, and others carpool/vanpool only. For example, why not make I-66 hybrid only and make I-395/95 carpool/vanpool only? Granted that would make me happy while pissing off a lot of folks who have hybrids and commute from Lake Ridge, Woodbridge, Fredricsburg, Quantico, Triangle, etc., but, it would provide a distinct route into the district for hybrid owners and there are ways to connect to 66 from 95 via the Prince William and Fairfax Parkways.
Just a couple of thoughts. I gave up my Mercedes ML320 SUV for my Honda Civic hybrid. My Mercedes was costing me more than $50 a week in gas and getting only 18-19 mpg. (It runs on premium fuel, too.) That cost would have been MUCH higher this past summer at the height of the gas price hikes. I gave up a luxury SUV for my Civic to be able to use HOV, to be more fuel efficient, and more environmentally friendly. There are still a lot of SUVs on the road and nobody seems to be subjecting their drivers to a lot of abuse, even if they don't pick up slugs.
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Posted By: Wagonman
Date Posted: 18 Jan 2005 at 6:07pm
quote:
Originally posted by Dick C
By the way, it is NOT against Federal law for hybrids to use HOV... Virginia was given a special exemption by the Congress as part of a highway bill to permit HOV use by hybrids and that exemption ends in July 06.
Another way that Virginia could cut down on the number of hybrids using HOV is to make them live by the letter of the law... in order to be eligible to use HOV in a hybrid vehicle, the car MUST have Clean Special Fuel plates -- something the dealer never told me when I bought my car in January 2003.
One other way that Virginia could solve the problem would be to make certain HOV lanes hybrid-only, and others carpool/vanpool only. For example, why not make I-66 hybrid only and make I-395/95 carpool/vanpool only? Granted that would make me happy while pissing off a lot of folks who have hybrids and commute from Lake Ridge, Woodbridge, Fredricsburg, Quantico, Triangle, etc., but, it would provide a distinct route into the district for hybrid owners and there are ways to connect to 66 from 95 via the Prince William and Fairfax Parkways.
I gave up a luxury SUV for my Civic to be able to use HOV, to be more fuel efficient, and more environmentally friendly. There are still a lot of SUVs on the road and nobody seems to be subjecting their drivers to a lot of abuse, even if they don't pick up slugs.
What highway bill was it that they put an exemption in? I'd be interested in seeing it if it exists. I don't believe the Federal government ever sanctioned hybrids in HOV. They just haven't enforced the law...yet.
VA does enforce needing clean fuel plates. Just not that well(about as well as catching other HOV cheaters). I don't think the dealer failing to inform you of the need for clean fuel plates is their fault. It would be nice if they did, but the buck stops with the driver.
Hybrid only HOV lanes? Keep dreaming. Hybrids aren't clean enough to deserve it and it would cause more environmental problems and congestion. Explain the benfits of such a proposal and how does it solve any problem? Instead of clogged HOV lanes you have no HOV lanes?
If you read some of the other topics here you will find that some SUVs are CLEANER than your HYBRID Civic. Maybe you should be a little more careful before you point a finger at someone else.
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Posted By: Wagonman
Date Posted: 18 Jan 2005 at 6:38pm
Here's a follow up about Federal law:
http://www.virginiadot.org/infoservice/resources/HOV%20Task%20Force%20Report%201-4-05.pdf
This is the report about Virginia HOV congestion. Appendix G has a letter from the Federal goverment to the state telling them they are violating Federal law. So it seems that there wasn't an exemption in a highway bill.
The whole report is interesting. One item of note is that back in 2000 the original opinion of DEQ and DMV was that hybrids shouldn't get the exemption. Then someone called their rep and it became a political decision to allow them the exemption. Not an emissions decision. Fast forward to the mess of today.
Also, even if the Federal goverment passes a law saying hybrids can use HOVs as SOVs it still shouldn't be enough to keep them in the lanes here. The reason being that the law would only let them in HOVs if HOV performance isn't degraded, but there is already a study for the 95/395 corridor that performance has been degraded by allowing hybrids as SOVs. This study should prevent hybrids from qualifying for any newly passed Federal exemption.
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Posted By: jojobean
Date Posted: 19 Jan 2005 at 8:42am
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I for one am in favor of a simple rule/law. If you want on the HOV, you have to have 3 people in the car, regardless of what type it is or who you work for, period.
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Posted By: 610toCrystalCity
Date Posted: 19 Jan 2005 at 9:04am
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I agree, you should have 3 people no matter what, including police officers unless they are on their way to an emergency and have thier lights on. And stop allowing single drivers on the HOV at I think its the Duke street entrance, because they STAY on!!!!
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Posted By: Road Warrior
Date Posted: 19 Jan 2005 at 9:48am
quote:
Originally posted by 610toCrystalCity
[br]I agree, you should have 3 people no matter what, including police officers unless they are on their way to an emergency and have thier lights on. And stop allowing single drivers on the HOV at I think its the Duke street entrance, because they STAY on!!!!
I agree that you should have three people per car except that law enforcement officers driving their own cars should be exempted because they are subject to responding to an emergency at any time regardless of whether or not they are on or off duty. I would not want to have to "go for the ride" or be put out on the shoulder if they have to respond to an emergency.
John
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Posted By: shirons
Date Posted: 19 Jan 2005 at 11:21am
Rep. JoAnn Davis weighs in on Hybrids:
Article from Jan.19 Free Lance Star
Davis defends I-95 hybrids
January 19, 2005 1:09 am
By EDIE GROSS
Rep. Jo Ann Davis is once again asking federal transportation officials to let Virginia be when it comes to allowing hybrid cars in the state's HOV lanes.
The Federal Highway Administration sent the state a letter last month, urging Virginia to reconsider the privileges extended to hybrid-car owners.
The agency had sent a similar letter in April 2003, warning Virginia that it might be violating federal law by allowing hybrid cars special access to HOV lanes.
At the time, Davis, R-Gloucester, persuaded federal officials to let Congress address the issue, which affects more than 5,600 hybrid owners in Virginia, most of them in Fredericksburg and communities north of here.
She reiterated that request yesterday in a letter to Mary Peters, the head of the Federal Highway Administration.
"I am once again writing to you regarding any concerns that the Federal Highway Administration may have over the Commonwealth of Virginia's current law exempting hybrid vehicles from High Occupancy Vehicle lanes," she wrote. "Although I have received assurances from your office that the federal government is content on waiting for Congress to address this matter, there appears to be some confusion about this issue at the state level."
State law allows drivers of the so-called "clean special fuel" cars to use the interstates' High Occupancy Vehicle lanes, or HOV lanes, without carrying the three people required of other vehicles. That law expires July 1, 2006.
But the Dec. 8 letter from the Federal Highway Administration indicated that Virginia's HOV lanes might be too congested to continue allowing that.
The letter was included in a report from a state task force that also recommended removing that exemption for hybrid owners.
It appears the federal agency sent the letter after members of the task force asked U.S. officials to clarify their feelings about hybrid cars in the state's HOV lanes.
As overseer of the country's interstates, the Federal Highway Administration has some jurisdiction over this matter. U.S. law gives cars that don't use gasoline special access to HOV lanes.
But hybrids, such as the Toyota Prius and Honda Insight, use a combination of gas and electricity, so they don't entirely qualify for special privileges under federal rules.
The federal agency could ban hybrids from HOV lanes altogether, but, in the past, it has agreed to let Congress handle the issue.
In 2003, Congress was considering legislation that would allow states to grant HOV access to hybrids. The U.S. House of Representatives has passed two measures giving states more power over that sort of thing, but the Senate still has not, said Chris Connelly, chief of staff for Davis.
The Federal Highway Administration released a statement yesterday indicating that it is still willing to wait for a decision from lawmakers, provided the state's HOV lanes don't get too crowded.
"For states that choose HOV lanes as part of the solution to congestion problems, we encourage states to operate those lanes efficiently so that they remain an attractive alternative to regular, non-HOV lanes," the statement read.
"We also recognize the environmental and energy benefits of cleaner, more fuel efficient vehicles such as gas-electric hybrids. Congress and the Administration will have the opportunity to clarify the use of these vehicles on HOV lanes during upcoming consideration of surface transportation legislation."
The Virginia Department of Transportation is still scheduled to send a report to the U.S. agency by Feb. 28 detailing the impact hybrids are having on HOV congestion.
To reach EDIE GROSS: 540/374-5428 egross@freelancestar.com
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Posted By: shirons
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2005 at 9:10am
I thought this was a pretty funny quote from a Hybrider regarding use of HOV lanes in today's Potomac News, Lane Ranger section:
"I had to pay $5,000 extra for a Hybrid Civic in order to ride in those lanes . . ."
Just think how much EXTRA this person and thousands of other SOVs will be willing to pay to use "those" lanes if they become HOT lanes.
http://www.potomacnews.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=Common%2FMGArticle%2FPrintVersion&c=MGArticle&cid=1031780415424&image=wpn80x60.gif&oasDN=potomacnews.com&oasPN=%21news
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Posted By: ronsray
Date Posted: 28 Jan 2005 at 4:13pm
All,
I received a call from a few folks in Richmond today. The individual bills that affect the Hybrid issues will be presented & heard by the committee on Tuesday Morning.
In our discussion, we talked about the best way to influence legislation. The following suggestions were made concerning this.
1. Write SHORT personalized emails to members of the transportation sub-committee. (1 or 2 paragraphs)
2. Put a personal face on it. (Examples how this affects you!)Remember that many of the delegates live in towns that don't even have a stop sign.
3. Don't be nasty. ASK for their help.
Remember, they meet on Tuesday, which means that any emails sent need to go out real soon.
Thanks to all for your help !
---------------
Email addresses for Transportation Sub-Committee Members
del_Wardrup@house.state.va.us
del_May@house.state.va.us
del_Wardrup@house.state.va.us
del_Black@house.state.va.us
del_Welch@house.state.va.us
del_Saxman@house.state.va.us
del_Carrico@house.state.va.us
del_Cosgrove@house.state.va.us
del_Gear@house.state.va.us
del_Oder@house.state.va.us
del_Rust@house.state.va.us
del_McDougle@house.state.va.us
del_Hugo@house.state.va.us
del_Scott@house.state.va.us
del_Fralin@house.state.va.us
del_Stump@house.state.va.us
del_Jones@house.state.va.us
del_Moran@house.state.va.us
del_Pollard@house.state.va.us
del_Ward@house.state.va.us
del_Ebbin@house.state.va.us
del_BaCote@house.state.va.us
del_williams@house.stste.va.us
district17@sov.state.va.us
district05@sov.state.va.us
district16@sov.state.va.us
district23@sov.state.va.us
district10@sov.state.va.us
district38@sov.state.va.us
district33@sov.state.va.us
district06@sov.state.va.us
district07@sov.state.va.us
district14@sov.state.va.us
district25@sov.state.va.us
district39@sov.state.va.us
district22@sov.state.va.us
district34@sov.state.va.us
Ron
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Posted By: defender
Date Posted: 30 Jan 2005 at 10:18pm
Thanks to various writers, there have been several articles on the breakdown of the HOV lanes in Northern Virginia. Most noted what thousands of car-pooling Northern Virginia commuters already know; if you want to legally cheat HOV-3, buy a so-called hybrid. If you want to defeat HOV, you may also buy a hybrid.
The legislators may have intended well by allowing hundreds small, “clean fuel” cars onto the HOV-3. However, the hundreds have multiplied to be thousands and now include full-sized LPG fueled trucks, CNG fueled Crown Victorias, and conventionally fueled, Ford Excape SUVs. Almost to a vehicle, these run through a legal loophole and onto the HOV-3 with “room for five, while ridden by one.”
This week, we are at a critical point. Our Legislators, particularly those who chair or sit on transportation sub-committees, need to understand how bad the daily commute has become, and why HOV is critically ill. The sickness is rooted in one cause. However, we have a simple and effective cure.
The Virginia Legislators needs to excise the cancer from the HOV. They need to END ALL EXCEPTIONS THAT ALLOW SOLO DRIVERS IN THESE LANES. Overnight, we will gain a potential to move 4,000 additional commuters without putting another car on the road. Ending the exceptions will decrease overall pollution by putting multiple commuters in the existing clean fuel vehicles. It will relieve HOV congestion. Best yet, it will do this at no additional cost to the taxpayer.
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