HOT Lanes Discussion - Looking for Allies to Battle HOT

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Looking for Allies to Battle HOT

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Forum Name: HOT Lanes Discussion
Forum Description: Post messages regarding High Occupancy Toll (HOT) lanes here.
URL: http://www.slug-lines.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1318
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Topic: Looking for Allies to Battle HOT

Posted By: Bob
Subject: Looking for Allies to Battle HOT
Date Posted: 29 Oct 2004 at 11:17am

I would like to request any information that slugs may have on potential allies in our fight against HOT, (at least in its current form). I am not a federal worker and am not real familiar with this, but I was thinking about the EPA, for example which controls air quality regs. I think that by adding thousands of cars, HOT will have a big negative impact on air quality. I have also thought about the various "green" groups such as Sierra Club which should be pro HOV. At one time I wrote a letter to AAA, which often takes political positions, but they never wrote back, so they may be pro HOT. On another occasion I wrote to Omniride, but unfortunately got a pro HOT response. There must be some allies we havent identified.

Replies:

Posted By: sharonji27
Date Posted: 29 Oct 2004 at 4:43pm

Since Tuesday is election day that could be a way to send a message. Are any of the people who voted to approve HOT lanes up for re-election??

Posted By: SpongeBob
Date Posted: 29 Oct 2004 at 5:16pm

No one's voted on anything yet. The project is just a proposal. But it's likely to be approved by all the counties along the corridor and by VDOT and that may be all it needs.

Voting is a good idea, but it tends to work from the backside (California's Davis notwithstanding.) I mean that a vote against a candidate because of that candidate's voting record, is a vote that comes too late: it arrives AFTER they've already inflicted their damage.

Posted By: Bob
Date Posted: 01 Nov 2004 at 9:31am

And HOV traffic opened up right after the minor paving work on 395. That must be part of it. But I wonder if a lot of singles are diving into the HOV lanes when the regular lane backups get bad. I thought this may be the case but looked around and did not see a lot of cheaters.

Posted By: adjguy
Date Posted: 01 Nov 2004 at 11:13pm

What are some other options of paying for another hov lane, and extending it to Fredburg? We voted against the transportation tax a few years back, and Virginia is broke.

Any solutions?

Posted By: spacefan
Date Posted: 15 Nov 2004 at 9:25am

If we don't start a letter-writing campaign RIGHT NOW, HOT lanes are going to be a fact of life. A large group of vocal people can do wonders--I was witness to this several years ago when my community beat back an attempt to locate a cell tower immediately adjacent to our community.

The whole point of HOT lanes is nothing more than increasing revenue. Well, then we need to push other avenues of revenue. Why not awaken the notion of the sales tax increase, BUT PROMOTE IT DIFFERENTLY. Any time someone hears "tax increase" they think property tax. Sales tax increases are nothing more than an increase in consumption tax like gas tax increases. If promoted properly, a sales tax increase referendum could pass if the alternative is more air pollution, more roads in disrepair, more gridlock, etc. I think you see where I'm going with this.

Of course Omniride is pro HOT lane because they know that HOT lanes will drastically impact slugging because of the drop in drivers picking up slugs, so they think their ridership will be up. The fact of the matter is that Omniride cannot possibly absorb the number of riders that might head their way if slugging is seriously impacted. Can Omniride absorb even half or one quarter of the 20,000 or so people who slug into DC and elsewhere everyday? Of course not! They couldn't possibly run enough buses to support the increased number of riders (thereby adding to the gridlock and air pollution) and the complaints would be endless about the packed buses. If the subject were broached to Omniride in these terms, they might be more supportive of our viewpoint.

The number of hybrids on the road is seriously impacting traffic in the HOV lanes NOW. Why hybrids are allowed in the HOV is beyond me because I thought the point was carpooling, not rewarding single drivers for supporting the automotive industry and circumventing the notion of mass transit. Besides, hybrids are not fuel efficient at high speeds--they burn gas at speeds exceeding 30-35 MPH--the electric only works at low speeds. The only benefit to owning a hybrid is driving in the HOV without passengers and less frequent visits to the gas station. How does that benefit MASS TRANSIT?

We need to organize NOW because the HOT lane train has left the station and we're watching it depart.

Posted By: goober
Date Posted: 16 Nov 2004 at 5:00pm

adjguy, It can't be that expensive to re-mark the existing HOV lanes to create another lane which is what is being proposed. Conceptually, if it's not too costly, can't the counties come up with some funding to pay VDOT for just this kind of change? I'll help promote this idea.

Extending the HOV will definitely be costly, and this is where the "considerate" contractors will pay for the work. But, can't that extension wait or is it clogged with traffic badly down to Fredricksburg? I get off at Horner so I have no idea how bad it is further south. IMHO, in general, if going further south means accomodating more new housing development, those developers should cough up higher proffers to pay for the extension.

Goober

Posted By: SpongeBob
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2004 at 2:03pm

The extension to Fredericksburg is the big carrot Fluor is using to ram this thing through. They're dying for more pavement down in Stafford and F'burg. Or so we've heard.

But Fluor's proposal says they will get around to extending the lanes "when we're bloody well ready to and not a minute before we have installed the toll booths between 14th St. and Dumfries." (OK, so I paraphrase -- we sponges do that sometimes.) Want to see where they say that?

Take a look at page 46 of the Fluor proposal. Also note that the lanes won't be extended to 610 until the summer of 2008.

Posted By: goober
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2004 at 4:45pm

Sponge, Where is page 46 of the Fluor proposal that you refer to, is it in "Tab 2 - Project Characteristics"? I'm looking at the post on the VDOT web site which is referenced in the slug-lines site.

Thanks.

Goober

Posted By: SpongeBob
Date Posted: 19 Nov 2004 at 2:54pm

Oh, my bad. I should have said Tab 2, page 46. It's a timeline under Project Characteristics.

(Pass me a Tums!)

Posted By: goober
Date Posted: 26 Nov 2004 at 3:52pm

Bob, I've been sincerely thinking about your initial request about seeking allies to battle HOT. I can�t think of a group or person that might be willing to see the light and have enough clout to help. The contractors have a profit motive, so they have an extremely strong desire to see this thru. Spacefan�s idea of a letter writing campaign makes sense, but who do you write to that can make a difference? The look of �yup, this proposal will make me look good to my constituents� and the non-critical stance of the supervisors� questioning leads me to believe that they�ve already made up their minds and won�t help.

My opinions: I think the EPA is too bureaucratic to help. AAA would probably be in favor of HOT because they are looking out for the motorist foremost and slugs aren�t drivers, so helping out the regular (single) driver will look favorably on AAA. I like your thoughts on the Sierra Club. They might be interested, however, they are really against sprawl which relies on highways. But I�ll write to them anyway to see where they stand on this issue and maybe see the light.

I�m not sure why these HOT threads aren�t as active as the others. We both know that if HOT is implemented, slugging as we know it, goes away. Could it be that others know something that we don�t, as in �are you making something out of nothing�, or that �HOT will eventually become a moot point and die?�

Goober

Posted By: Bob
Date Posted: 28 Nov 2004 at 7:33pm

Goober,

Thanks for airing your thoughts on this. I am just dumbfounded that no major group has come out against HOT. I think they just have not really thought things through yet to understand the difference between the Beltway proposal and the 95 proposal in terms of ending HOV on 95. Also that our region will be a "guinea pig" for this thing. If anyone has contact with these groups, please send me a note on this and I will write them.

Bob

Posted By: shirons
Date Posted: 13 Dec 2004 at 3:42pm

Is there a consolidated effort to fight HOT lanes in Northern Virginia? Besides the Hot Lane section and message board of this website is there an organized group of commuters making their voices heard in an structured way with local and federal government officials.

If we (those against Hot Lanes) simply rely on our colleagues here on the message board to author letters and attend meetings to fight the fast moving proposals their going to be slammed on our roads before you can blink an eye.

Remember a majority of the folks giving the green light to Hot lane proposals rarely commute to DC or even sit in the congested traffic. Most of our locally elected officials are either retired professionally or work in the local jurisdiction they represent. In Prince William County only 3 of the 8 members of the Board of Supervisors regularly commute outside of PWC for work (and at least two of them typically do the commute at non-peak hours) and only one member of the state delegation from PWC to the General Assembly works north of PWC.

The way they see it is �I ran on making traffic better for my constituents and hey these Hot Lane proposals sound like a pretty good deal.� If they don�t hear a vociferous opposition they�ll say �yes� and have the campaign material spouting �Providing Transportation Solutions� as fast as they can.

What needs to happen is we, commuters, need to organize in numbers, and aggressively recruit as many folks as we can. Do write the letters to the electeds, start letters-to-the-editor campaigns and make sure there are a number of people who are willing to attend and speak at meetings in all of the jurisdictions that Hot Lane proposals will have to go through. All this combined with finding partners, whether it be environmental groups or other to speak out against the proposals.

Opposition can�t be limited to one jurisdiction's Board of Supervisors� chamber (i.e. PWC), it will have to be made in all local jurisdictions' chambers as well as Council of Governments, state legislative delegations and federal legislative delegations.

I�d be willing to do what I can to help organize and work against. As a former candidate for a local Board of Supervisors I have a number of contacts and relationships that could be useful.

Posted By: goober
Date Posted: 13 Dec 2004 at 5:09pm

shirons (Scott Hirons I gather from your profile), you apparently know what is required to get this going. Obviously, the people on this forum don't quite get the point that this slugging system will go away if nothing is done now.

Thanks for your initiative. If you can help, it will undoubtedly help your future campaigns... but I hope you will do this for the right reason.

Goober

Posted By: shirons
Date Posted: 14 Dec 2004 at 1:30pm

I only want to help because I don't see Hot Lanes as a very good solution to an already bad transportation system. I agree with the other posters who say it's going to end slugging and add time to everyone's commute.

I have, since last year's election, moved out of the jurisdiction where I ran for office. I've moved to Stafford County and would be starting from ground zero with regards to any political aspirations. If I ever do give it a shot again it'll be quite some time.

I just want to offer my help to this effort with the skills and knowledge I did learn in politics.

Posted By: jlcnole
Date Posted: 15 Dec 2004 at 9:05am

Delegate Michelle McQuigg (51st District representative to the Virginia House of Delegates) has a pre-legistlative session survey on her website asking about HOT Lanes (and a bunch of other topics). If anyone is interested in making their view known, here is the link: http://www.digital-wise.com/51/pre05surv.cfm

Posted By: jlcnole
Date Posted: 15 Dec 2004 at 9:07am

Sorry - forgot to mention she wants responses by 12/17!

quote:
Originally posted by jlcnole
[br]Delegate Michelle McQuigg (51st District representative to the Virginia House of Delegates) has a pre-legistlative session survey on her website asking about HOT Lanes (and a bunch of other topics). If anyone is interested in making their view known, here is the link: http://www.digital-wise.com/51/pre05surv.cfm

Posted By: Bob
Date Posted: 15 Dec 2004 at 1:35pm

I did a google search and found this Sept 2003 "anti HOT" article from Sierra Club. I dont know what their most recent position is, but this is what I am talking about with potential allies.
Bob

http://www.sierraclub.org/dc/sprawl/HOT_OpEd.htm

Posted By: Baz
Date Posted: 15 Dec 2004 at 1:42pm

Great article. We need this guy on our Anti-HOT side.

Posted By: goober
Date Posted: 15 Dec 2004 at 3:40pm

Dear Sweet Libby,

Thanks for your efforts in getting the higher ups informed about HOV, slugging, and how hybrids are making matters worse. However, I think something more insidious than clean fuel vehicles are HOT lanes. Those pesky hybrids seem to be fouling things up but they can't make slugging go away. HOT lanes can make slugging go away forever. Can I ask that you join in the cause against HOT Lanes?

Goober

Posted By: Admin
Date Posted: 15 Dec 2004 at 4:12pm

Here is the Sierra Club article:

Not so fast on those Beltway HOT lanes
Northern Virginia Journal
September 4, 2003
By Roger Diedrich
Some of Virginia�s elected officials would have us rush to judgment on whether privately-run HOT lanes (HOV lanes that allow single occupant vehicles toll access) are the best solution to congestion on the Capital Beltway (�Time to fast-track HOT lanes on Beltway�, 8/27/2003). There are just too many questions surrounding the effectiveness of HOT lanes not to do a full and complete analysis of this proposal and allow time for a thorough public debate.

Will HOT lanes reduce Beltway congestion? Many studies have shown that simply adding more lanes does not solve congestion. Instead, the new lanes fill up with traffic as more people switch to driving, change their typical driving route, and move further away from population and job centers. While the HOT lanes are priced to keep traffic moving, the non-express lanes will quickly face increasing congestion. In the years following the construction of the SR 91 Express Lanes in Orange County, CA�one of four HOT lane systems in the US�the commute on the non-express lanes deteriorated into one of the worst in the state.

Can a private company successfully run HOT lanes? For SR 91 in Orange County, it took 31 months of operation, three toll increases, and new charges for carpools before any profit was made. In addition, the private company had a �non-compete� clause in its contract preventing the local transportation authority from upgrading�even for safety reasons�roads in the surrounding area. In 2002, amid complaints about non-express lane conditions and rising toll costs, the Orange County Transportation Authority spent over $200 million to purchase the lanes, and regain functional control of the highway.

What do we know about Fluor Daniel? We do know that this is the company responsible for the Pocahontas Parkway, a toll road south of Richmond, which has consistently failed to meet profit expectations. To protect the company from financial risk on the Beltway project, Fluor Daniel could ask the state to bear a portion of construction costs and provide tax-exempt loans, which would save the company millions of dollars. This would amount to a huge taxpayer subsidy to a private company.

Are HOT lanes good for transit? Proponents argue that faster moving lanes make express bus service possible, and that toll revenues will pay for it. But how will express bus service work on the Beltway? How much additional money is promised to transit services? Would VDOT require that Fluor Daniel devote a percentage of its profits to bus service operation? If the company fails to make a profit, as is the case with the Pocahontas Parkway, where would the money for bus service come from? A HOT lanes project near San Diego is often used an example of how tolls can be used to fund transit, but that was a much different project than is proposed for the Beltway. A public agency completed that project with federal dollars, and it was a conversion of HOV lanes to HOT lanes, which is much less expensive than constructing new lanes. The result was significantly more funds available for transit than should be expected on the Beltway project.

Furthermore, it is unclear how buses would access HOT lanes, or how riders would access the bus. If only three locations will have an on/off ramp directly to the HOT lanes, buses will otherwise be forced to cross four congested lanes of traffic to get to the HOT lanes, making express bus service impractical. And would bus stops be located adjacent to the Beltway? If so, would riders walk to those bus stops, or would large park and ride lots have to be constructed? These questions need to be answered before proponents can claim this proposal will improve bus service.

A Better Solution: Beltway Rail & Land-Use Changes: A new rail line in the Beltway corridor combined with compact development at the stations is a better way to provide transportation choices and improve livability. The Virginia Department of Rail and Public Transportation completed a Beltway Rail Study in 2001, which found that a new rail line would significantly improve mobility in the area. For example, the light rail alternative on Backlick and Gallows Roads was found to carry 73,000 trips a day. In fact, ridership levels would likely be much higher if more compact, mixed-use development is built in places like Annandale and Merrifield.

Strong public support for Beltway rail was demonstrated during the public comment period and public hearings for the Beltway EIS last year. VDOT received over 800 comments supporting the inclusion of a rail alternative in the study, and dozens of residents spoke in support of rail at the hearings. But VDOT has ignored this overwhelming public sentiment while instead focusing only on more lanes.

Thus far, we have only heard one side of the debate about HOT lanes. It is a new idea that many are excited about. But area residents need time to research the issue, and deserve the chance to air their feelings at public hearings. In addition, Governor Warner and Northern Virginia public officials should insist that a rail and land-use alternative be included in the Draft EIS, so that the public�s decision is fully informed.

Roger Diedrich is the chairman of the Virginia chapter of the Sierra Club.

Posted By: shirons
Date Posted: 16 Dec 2004 at 3:19pm

I would like to see Corey's response to HOT lanes. He's a good friend of mine, but I've never discussed this issue with him before. He is one of the PWC Board members who commutes downtown everyday and I know before his election he often slugged.

Posted By: dickboyd
Date Posted: 16 Dec 2004 at 9:27pm

Adding capacity in the Shirley Highway corridor is like pouring gasoline on a fire in an attempt to put out the fire. Added capacity either in more highway lane miles or more rail miles, or more buses is a waste of money.

At one time about 35% of commuters shared the ride from northern Virginia to the Pentagon or DC. I don't know what the percentage is now, but the absolute numbers of carpoolers has grown. Just not as fast as the other methods. Also car pools lost some passengers to the VERY expensive VRE, METRO and several other local government bus system. DASH, DART, Fairfax Connector, etc.

Yes, VRE, METRO and the rest use fuel tax dollars. In addition they use taxes collected on property and taxes collected on restaurant meals and other items. Operating costs of "mass transit" are about three to six times what is collected in the fare box. Capital costs aren't even mentioned. Including capital (like rebuilding Quantico Bridge) would bring that ratio up to about twenty to one.

Auto companies spend somewhere between $500 and $5000 in "advertising" and "promotional" cost for every car they sell. Even a third or fourth hand used car costs about $50 in advertising.

How much do VRE and METRO spend on advertising for passengers? Or are they content with poaching slug lines and preying on the innocents that move to DC from New York City?

Should FHWA fund slug promotion? Should some of the METRO/VRE budget be dedicated to advertising slugs

dickboyd@aol.com

Posted By: dickboyd
Date Posted: 16 Dec 2004 at 9:28pm

The parts of VRE that are worthwhile are the least emphasized. VRE has passengers and VRE has parking. But those passengers are very expensive when compared to using the parking lots for commuters to form slug lines. There are more than enough empty seats in rush hour to carry ALL the VRE and METRO passengers as well as at least another 25% that would allow ALL roads to free flow.

For the money spent on VRE, taxpayers could pay commuters to ride in slug lines. Payment might be in improved security, improved pick up and drop off points.

dickboyd@aol.com

Posted By: dickboyd
Date Posted: 16 Dec 2004 at 9:59pm

THEM AND US

Why should there be so much antagonism in commuting? Isn't the target to keep ALL the roads flowing? Not at capactiy, but free flowing.

Think of a glass of water which is full. Did you think of a glass sitting on the table with water crowned over the miniscus? Or did you think like a waitress with a half inch from the top so you could carry the glass without spilling.

Traffic engineers chase the holy grail of capacity. Capacity is evil. One more car and the flow is unstable, the road becomes a parking lot. Leading up to capactity drivers begin to interact with each other. Driving tasks increase. Motorists compensate by slowing down. What was a fifteen minute predictable trip becomes a half hour unpredictable trip.

Free flow is good. Capacity is evil.

If free flow is good for slugs, why isn't it good for everyone? Perhaps THEY don't know about slugging because WE fail to tell them about it.

And who are WE. Is "WE" our elected officials and paid transportation staff that continues to insist on HOV-3? Is it those that insist on capacity? Shirley was originally HOV-4 with plans to go to higher numbers of HOV to ensure free flow. Congressman Paris took care of free flow with a clandestine rider to the Julliette Lowe Bill. Guess what? Capacity!

Who wants to commute at capacity? Drive alones, that's who.

In numbers, a free flowing lane can carry about 1,800 vehicles at the posted speed. At capacity the flow is 2,400 vehicles per hour at about 70% (45 MPH vs 65 MPH) of posted speed. One day in twenty will see unpredictable flow.

If WE are the existing slugs, then I suggest it is our task to spread the good news. The target then is to get 600 people per lane per hour out of the drive alone mode and into a ride sharing mode. The alternate is to pursuade 600 people per lane per hour to drive at some other time.

If your commute takes half an hour on a regular lane and you don't switch lanes, there are 1,199 other people just like you. So rush right out and introduce yourself to those 1,199 people and get 150 of them to become passengers in the greatest way to get to work in the DC area. Slugging.

Then that one lane will free flow for the half hour you are using it. [:D]

OK, there are five lanes over six hours in rush hour. If the average trip is half an hour then it will only take 60 of you to recruit 18,000 people to become passengers. Sonds like too much work? Or would you rather spend your time sitting in traffic?

Last time I looked there were more people (in fewer cars) on the reversible lanes than in the regular lanes. People in the reversible lanes traveled at the posted speed and did not anticipate delay.

dickboyd@aol.com

Posted By: Admin
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2004 at 6:36am

Dick,
Thanks for joining the forum and sharing your extensive knowledge of transportation issues!!

Posted By: goober
Date Posted: 20 Dec 2004 at 3:59pm

Dick, I'm curious as to where your numbers come from because you make no references. The numbers appear to be credible, so, I presume that some of your numbers came from news articles and elsewhere.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate your diligence in supporting your points on traffic -- you appear to be quite knowledgeable about the subject. So, are you for or against HOT?

Goober

Posted By: dickboyd
Date Posted: 20 Dec 2004 at 6:35pm

Federal employees are "Hatched". They come under the Hatch act. That act prohibits certain political activity.

Another Federal law prohibits the use of Federal funds to directly support "commuting". The reference legislation used to be quoted on the front of the DOD phone books and on the inside cover of the phone books in other agencies.

You can expect slug support from the building managers. Building managers are either GSA or contractors in rented buildings. Slugs reduce the pressure on parking space demand. The more cooperative building managers will let you put up posters and advertising on the bulletin boards or in the Agnecy Newsletter.

As "price of admission", I suggest some of the slugs exercise the right of free speech. They can promote slug lines at the work space by putting up maps of where slug lines are located. They can advertise Dave L's website and they can personally thank Dave for the labor of love.

They can print some of the comments from this thread and make sure there is a new comment every day on the Agency bulletin board. Humor appreciated.

I for one think it is about time that Dave should get a salary for all that he has done to promote slugging. I think the drive alones should be the ones to pay.

dickboyd@aol.com

Posted By: dickboyd
Date Posted: 20 Dec 2004 at 6:41pm

I don't think there should be an effort to fight HOT. Instead, I think there should be a more public discussion of how roads are to be operated.

Should roads be operated at capacity? Capacity means twenty percent longer travel times every day and one day per month of unpredictable travel time. Unpredictable travel time can take up to three days to clear.

Should roads be operated at free flow? Free flow means travel at posted speed limits every day at any hour and one day in ten years of unpredictable travel time. Unpredictable travel time can be cleared in three hours.

What does it take to get roads to free flow? More concrete or more passengers? More bus seats, more train seats? Or fill the empty seats of the drive alone?

dickboyd@aol.com

Posted By: Baz
Date Posted: 21 Dec 2004 at 6:53am

dickboyd,
ever thought about being a contestant on Jeopardy?

Posted By: goober
Date Posted: 21 Dec 2004 at 10:37am

I agree that there should be more discussion on how the roads should operate. I believe there are people (planners?) that are thinking about the big picture and long term objectives of commuting in this area. There are numerous studies about highways and proposed plans, like VDOT�s 2025 State Highway Plan. However, I think that is a subject matter that will be ongoing with refinements and continually discussed over the years.

HOT is a subject that needs to be addressed now because it can damage the success of the slug system and conceivably influence long range plans for commuting. So, this thread, labeled �Looking for Allies to Battle HOT� suggests that we need to fight HOT, not with a closed minded or extremist approach, but with the understanding that it will kill the slug system.

BTW, Dave is David LeBlanc, the author of the book "Slugging:The Commuting Alternative For Washington DC" and administrator of this site (hope I didn' step on your toes, DickBoyd).

Goober

Posted By: dickboyd
Date Posted: 21 Dec 2004 at 4:55pm

Goober, the $9 per hour saving came from a bus advocate professional engineer. The time frame was 1980. The venue was the Citizen's Advisory Committee to the Transportation Commission. This was a politically appointed board that met at the Northern Virginia Planning Commission at 7700 Little River Turnpike in Annandale, Virginia. Bob Chase was also at that meeting. The $9 per hour was also quoted from an FHWA report on cost of transportation. Again, that was twenty or more years ago.

I guess I can ask howstuffworks or FHWA for an update.

Am I for or agin HOT? As Ronald Reagan used to say, let me say this about that. I believe roads should be free flowing. Not capacity - free flowing. There are places where HOT has been used to build more lane miles. [California, San Diego, Orange County, etc.] When the passengers didn't materialize to make the High Occupancy part work, the toll was in place to collect money. Commuters in the area seemed to be happy because congestion was slightly relieved. Politicians were ecstatic over the windfall.

In my opinion, the high occupancy part of HOT did not work because there were no HOV champions. In fact, it worked the other way. There were detractors of casual car pools.

Not enough commuters want to be passengers. Vested interests decided that passengers should only ride in the trains and buses recommended by the Metropolitan Planning Organization. Even those that would benefit from more passengers took up arms against the "jack booted thugs" that were about to bayonet innocent commuters into car pools.

People like Joe Alexander, who was a Supervisor in Fairfax County would even turn his head and make a spitting gesture and sound at the mention of slugs or van pools.

Even this news group talks about riding with "strangers". Granted there may be some strange people, but they are all neighbors. If you don't meet them at the slug line, you will see them at PTA meetings, kid's soccer games, shopping, at work or church.

Play down the stranger part and emphasize the neighbor part. We are all in this together.

But the HOT ploy did manage an end run around the "transit at any price" contingent. Some additional lane miles were added. Might I say at competitive prices.

Machievelli advised the Prince not to change anything as he would only gain the enmity of the incumbent and only luke warm support from those to benefit. You might point that slugs are the incumbent. But till now have not yet expressed their enmity to the forces of evil that want to change things.

Northern Virginia is unique in that commuters are still benefiting from the legacy of the way the Pentagon was built. Unlike today's real estate market, there was no zoning. Just build it. The infrastructure be damned. No roads? So what's the problem, we don't have any gasoline either (remember this was war time coming off a depression). Let the people ride together.

People in northern Virginia formed car pools as a way of life. With each subsequent war (Korea, Viet Nam...) Pentagon employment grew. With each election, the population grew. Those not reelected stayed because that is where they had built their contacts.

The newly elected moved in from the hinterlands. Each bringing their idea of what transportation should be. Those from cities wanted buses and trains. Those from rural areas wanted more roads. None of them had ever seen slug lines. The locals failed to educate the newbies.

Car pools served about a third or more of the commuters. Buses provided mid day service, but not commuting. Then when Shirley Highway reversible lanes were built, the slug movement took off.

The official effort was to limit the Shirley reversible lanes to buses only. One ploy was to limit the exits from Shirley that could be used by passenger cars.

There was political pressure to get the off ramps opened for car pools. Crystal City was being built and the Navy was moving to Virginia at the time, so car pool commuting was a natural. Builders took advantage by having fewer parking spaces than what floor area ratios called for.

METRO came later. In my opinion, METRO has not filled its promise. Land use around METRO stations does not match what you see in Paris or London. Ballston comes close as does L'Enfant, but none of the METRO stations have significant residential space. None of them have clusters of different stores that reduce the number of trips required.

To sum it up. I am for the high occupancy part of HOT. I see the toll part as a sales tool for people to do some comparison shopping.

Lets see... as a commuter I need to get to work on this route at this time of day. I can pick up two or three passengers or I can pay $4 and drive alone. In either case I save fifteen minutes on my normal thirty minute commute. Is fifteen minutes privacy worth $4? Is meeting two or three of my neighbors worth it? Or my third option is to drive alone on the regular lanes, have half an hour of privacy and keep the $4. Or I can buy an Accura RL and have a fantasy about their advertising as I sit in traffic.

For what it is worth, the Citizen's Advisory Committee was disbanded even though there are still provisions in the law for its existence. In one sense, the CAC was a venue to muzzle the dissidents. In another, it was a way to get a broader public audience. Depended on which party was in power.

The powers of darkness will use the toll part of HOT as a way to get the unrepentant slugs to conform to the norms of society.

quote:
Originally posted by goober
[br]Dick, I'm curious as to where your numbers come from because you make no references. The numbers appear to be credible, so, I presume that some of your numbers came from news articles and elsewhere.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate your diligence in supporting your points on traffic -- you appear to be quite knowledgeable about the subject. So, are you for or against HOT?

Goober

dickboyd@aol.com

Posted By: dickboyd
Date Posted: 21 Dec 2004 at 5:35pm

PEAK SHAVING

No, this is not a story about Heidi in the Alps with a Gillette.

With electricity and roads there is a peak demand. A time of day when electricity is more in demand. A time of day when more people want to use the road. Neither electricity or roads can be saved in a bottle for use at a different time.

Power companies use a rate schedule to control demand. Electricity is more expensive during times of peak demand. [If you are really curious or have insomnia, ask and I'll go into more detail.]

I assume most of the slugs are served by Prince William Electric Coop (PWEC). PWEC handles the peak demands for its customers in different ways. Water heating is deferred to early morning hours by timers. Air-conditioning is parceled out by smart thermostats. PWEC does not generate power. PWEC contracts to buy the cheap off peak power and then uses technology to deliver the effects of the electricity when needed. Hot water in the morning, cool houses on the hot August afternoon.

OK, Virginia Power does save electricity for use at a different time. They use level loaded nuclear power to pump water into reservoirs during off peak times and then recover the potential energy of the water behind the dam to generate the peak load. But that peak electricity is still more expensive than base load power.

Since this newsgroup is about commuting lets get back to the topic of roads. Are there vehicles on the road in rush hour that can make their trips at other times? When I lived in northern Virginia, you could play tennis on Shirley Highway off peak. Gasoline trucks and other delivery vehicles would not travel at night (or off peak for that matter) because it was too dangerous. Danger of being robbed, mugged or kidnapped. Danger of being driven out of business by irate neighbors over noise.

Are there vehicles on the road in rush hour that could make their trips at other times? Could the less than a truck load deliveries be consolidated at a warehouse in West Virginia for single point drop off in DC? If there were a buck to be made, I'm sure someone will find a way to do it.

Are there vehicles on the road that could be more efficient? How many vehicles have empty seats? What does it take to fill those empty seats? Or should we add more seats?

I feel the politicians were elected to answer these questions. Is it more expensive to buy more buses and trains, or is it more expensive to get people to ride together? If the elected officials can show that it is cheaper to buy more trains and buses rather than ask people to ride with each other, more power to them. But I doubt if they can show how it is cheaper to run buses than slug lines. Unless they have a lot of external costs on the buses. Unless there is magic bookkeeping to make buses appear cheap and slugs appear to be expensive.

Roads and electric generators should be built to handle a base load. Peak loads are better handled by some other strategy.

Computer technology uses packet switching to select the best route. That means that lower priority messages may be held in a warehouse for delivery off peak. That means you may not be able to connect to a server lest you overload that server and cause it to crash.

How do you packet switch people? Put them in the same packet (car) at a slug line.

quote:
Originally posted by Bob
[br]I would like to request any information that slugs may have on potential allies in our fight against HOT, (at least in its current form). I am not a federal worker and am not real familiar with this, but I was thinking about the EPA, for example which controls air quality regs. I think that by adding thousands of cars, HOT will have a big negative impact on air quality. I have also thought about the various "green" groups such as Sierra Club which should be pro HOV. At one time I wrote a letter to AAA, which often takes political positions, but they never wrote back, so they may be pro HOT. On another occasion I wrote to Omniride, but unfortunately got a pro HOT response. There must be some allies we havent identified.

dickboyd@aol.com

Posted By: Baz
Date Posted: 22 Dec 2004 at 7:54am

quote:
Originally posted by dickboyd
[br]Goober, the $9 per hour saving came from a bus advocate professional engineer. The time frame was 1980. The venue was the Citizen's Advisory Committee to the Transportation Commission. This was a politically appointed board that met at the Northern Virginia Planning Commission at 7700 Little River Turnpike in Annandale, Virginia. Bob Chase was also at that meeting. The $9 per hour was also quoted from an FHWA report on cost of transportation. Again, that was twenty or more years ago.

I guess I can ask howstuffworks or FHWA for an update.

Am I for or agin HOT? As Ronald Reagan used to say, let me say this about that. I believe roads should be free flowing. Not capacity - free flowing. There are places where HOT has been used to build more lane miles. [California, San Diego, Orange County, etc.] When the passengers didn't materialize to make the High Occupancy part work, the toll was in place to collect money. Commuters in the area seemed to be happy because congestion was slightly relieved. Politicians were ecstatic over the windfall.

In my opinion, the high occupancy part of HOT did not work because there were no HOV champions. In fact, it worked the other way. There were detractors of casual car pools.

Not enough commuters want to be passengers. Vested interests decided that passengers should only ride in the trains and buses recommended by the Metropolitan Planning Organization. Even those that would benefit from more passengers took up arms against the "jack booted thugs" that were about to bayonet innocent commuters into car pools.

People like Joe Alexander, who was a Supervisor in Fairfax County would even turn his head and make a spitting gesture and sound at the mention of slugs or van pools.

Even this news group talks about riding with "strangers". Granted there may be some strange people, but they are all neighbors. If you don't meet them at the slug line, you will see them at PTA meetings, kid's soccer games, shopping, at work or church.

Play down the stranger part and emphasize the neighbor part. We are all in this together.

But the HOT ploy did manage an end run around the "transit at any price" contingent. Some additional lane miles were added. Might I say at competitive prices.

Machievelli advised the Prince not to change anything as he would only gain the enmity of the incumbent and only luke warm support from those to benefit. You might point that slugs are the incumbent. But till now have not yet expressed their enmity to the forces of evil that want to change things.

Northern Virginia is unique in that commuters are still benefiting from the legacy of the way the Pentagon was built. Unlike today's real estate market, there was no zoning. Just build it. The infrastructure be damned. No roads? So what's the problem, we don't have any gasoline either (remember this was war time coming off a depression). Let the people ride together.

People in northern Virginia formed car pools as a way of life. With each subsequent war (Korea, Viet Nam...) Pentagon employment grew. With each election, the population grew. Those not reelected stayed because that is where they had built their contacts.

The newly elected moved in from the hinterlands. Each bringing their idea of what transportation should be. Those from cities wanted buses and trains. Those from rural areas wanted more roads. None of them had ever seen slug lines. The locals failed to educate the newbies.

Car pools served about a third or more of the commuters. Buses provided mid day service, but not commuting. Then when Shirley Highway reversible lanes were built, the slug movement took off.

The official effort was to limit the Shirley reversible lanes to buses only. One ploy was to limit the exits from Shirley that could be used by passenger cars.

There was political pressure to get the off ramps opened for car pools. Crystal City was being built and the Navy was moving to Virginia at the time, so car pool commuting was a natural. Builders took advantage by having fewer parking spaces than what floor area ratios called for.

METRO came later. In my opinion, METRO has not filled its promise. Land use around METRO stations does not match what you see in Paris or London. Ballston comes close as does L'Enfant, but none of the METRO stations have significant residential space. None of them have clusters of different stores that reduce the number of trips required.

To sum it up. I am for the high occupancy part of HOT. I see the toll part as a sales tool for people to do some comparison shopping.

Lets see... as a commuter I need to get to work on this route at this time of day. I can pick up two or three passengers or I can pay $4 and drive alone. In either case I save fifteen minutes on my normal thirty minute commute. Is fifteen minutes privacy worth $4? Is meeting two or three of my neighbors worth it? Or my third option is to drive alone on the regular lanes, have half an hour of privacy and keep the $4. Or I can buy an Accura RL and have a fantasy about their advertising as I sit in traffic.

For what it is worth, the Citizen's Advisory Committee was disbanded even though there are still provisions in the law for its existence. In one sense, the CAC was a venue to muzzle the dissidents. In another, it was a way to get a broader public audience. Depended on which party was in power.

The powers of darkness will use the toll part of HOT as a way to get the unrepentant slugs to conform to the norms of society.

quote:
Originally posted by goober
[br]Dick, I'm curious as to where your numbers come from because you make no references. The numbers appear to be credible, so, I presume that some of your numbers came from news articles and elsewhere.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate your diligence in supporting your points on traffic -- you appear to be quite knowledgeable about the subject. So, are you for or against HOT?

Goober

dickboyd@aol.com

...and thus ending your history lecture on NOVA infrastructure....

Posted By: Baz
Date Posted: 22 Dec 2004 at 11:05am

Roadrunner....kinda my point. One acronym I learned in the Army. "KISS". "Keep It Simple Stupid". On this forum, I think a 1-2 page report is overkill. Plus...Does anyone else just see it as rambling on and on...and on. In the end, is it even coherent?? So much for the Introduction-Body-Conclusion that I was taught.

Posted By: Admin
Date Posted: 22 Dec 2004 at 4:19pm

Baz and RoadRunner,
I have corresponded with DickBoyd over the years and specifically asked him to join this forum a couple of weeks ago because he has a tremendous amount of information and knowledege on transportation issues for this area. As you can probably tell, he knows what he is talking about and the information he shares can help us (slugs) address commuting problems.

As for the long posts, I okay with them. I have tried to post links to information but if the link or page is removed, the information and link are broken. Hence, the best way is to just post it on the forum. I've got plenty of disk space, so that's not a problem.

I want to see this forum as open discussion with disagreement on the issue, not how the issue is presented.

Posted By: dickboyd
Date Posted: 22 Dec 2004 at 7:55pm

Only if they ask questions about slugs on Shirley Highway and Dave isn't one of the other contestants.[:)]

quote:
Originally posted by Baz
[br]dickboyd,
ever thought about being a contestant on Jeopardy?

dickboyd@aol.com

Posted By: goober
Date Posted: 23 Dec 2004 at 11:12am

DickBoyd,
You said, �People like Joe Alexander, who was a Supervisor in Fairfax County would even turn his head and make a spitting gesture and sound at the mention of slugs or van pools.� So, what do you think of the current supervisors in Fairfax? Prince William�s Board of County Supervisors appear to be duped because no one�s opposing or at the least, questioning the contractors' proposals. Hopefully, the meeting being spearheaded by Hirons will be fruitful. Are you attending [?]

Goober

Posted By: dickboyd
Date Posted: 23 Dec 2004 at 7:17pm

Sadly, I will not be attending. I live in Browns Valley, California. The nearest traffic signal is twelve miles. The nearest park and ride is seven miles. But the drivers don't commute to Virginia. Park and rides for casual car pools are a big secret. Please don't tell anyone. CALTRANS thinks they will be taken over as places to sell used cars. Mass transit proponents will build a train station.

Ask me about parking in Crystal City on state owned property sometime.

Good luck to those slugs that are attending public meetings.

While I was in Virginia, I found Senator Dick Saslaw (D) and Delegate Jim Dillard (R)to be very helpful to the cause of free flow on Shirley. Vivian Watts was helpful early on until she joined the VRE/METRO forces while she served as Sevretary of Transportation.

Jack Kay of JHK Traffic consulting was also very helpful. But don't approach him until you understand traffic consultants. Jack is a good speaker if you need someone for Kiwanis or the Chamber of Commerce or a professional society.

Albert Dwoskin, a mall developer was also helpful. But don't approach him until you understand how he makes a living. Think Donald Trump on a larger scale without the publicity.

How politically savvy are the people (slugs) that will be attending? Is there a game plan for presentations? Do you know what the margins were in the politicians' last elections? Do the slugs know people that vote in the politicians district? Which of the slugs work on reelection committes?

Mentioning the vote results to a politician is considered a threat. Backpedal that information unless you are sure you can get the votes to throw the scoundrel out and that the new scoundrel will do your bidding.

What do I think of the politicians? That isn't the question. What do I think of the voters? Are they willing to make a good case for their point of view? Being able to form a coalition with other interests is key.

Several times I had the pleasure of meeting Senator Proxmire. Once on a flight to Chicago, once in Madison at the home of his home secretary. First question from him was "do you vote in Wisconsin"?

That is the test of a politician. Do they respond to the people that vote for them or that can potentially vote for them or influence the people that vote for them? Or do they respond only to the contributors that pay for their campaigns? Can they politely ignore those that do not pose a threat to their holding office.

Keep in the back of your mind that a politicians job is to get elected and once elected to get reelected. If the people don't vote, the politicians job is easy. He doesn't have to make hard decisions. He doesn't have to set policy. He only has to listen to those that take the time and courtesy to talk to him. What the politician thinks is not important unless the politician acts only on what he thinks is important and that is not in agreement with what his constituents want. If there is disagreement, get another politician. Remember the unemployment rate in politicians is at least 50%.

I used to see Virginia delegates at the grocery store, or in the underground at Crystal City. They impressed me in being able to conduct an on the spot poll of what people in their districts thought on an issue and being able to identify people that would take their message back to others.

Mahlon Anderson of AAA would be a good person to have on your side. Bob Chase would also be a good ally.

Slugs will always be in the minority, but their actions help the finances of the majority. Except the majority doesn't know that because the slugs don't tell their message in a way that can be understood.

Dave tries, but he needs some help. He can't carry it alone.

quote:
Originally posted by goober
[br]DickBoyd,
... So, what do you think of the current supervisors in Fairfax? Prince William... Hopefully, the meeting being spearheaded by Hirons will be fruitful. Are you attending [?]

Goober

dickboyd@aol.com

Posted By: dickboyd
Date Posted: 27 Dec 2004 at 2:14pm

HOT WIIFM. What's In It for Me. Even though I live in California, slug lines anywhere are to my benefit.

Why do slugs benefit me? Slugs reduce the competition for highway dollars. California gets back about $0.80 in Federal funds of every fuel tax dollar. Compare this to Massachusetts that gets back $2.80 for every tax dollar collected.

Slugs reduce demand for new roads. Slugs recognize the benefits of filling the empty seats before asking for more.

Slugs recognize the value of personal time and family values. Why pour money as freely as concrete when school systems suffer lack of funding? Slugs have time to coach their children's soccer teams, organize the PTA and sing in the choir.

Why should I pay to have people sit alone in their cars?

Areas that had rapid growth in World War II have the largest slug base. Washington, DC, Oakland, CA, etc.

If you are looking for support, ask the slugs to write a letter to their cousin in Keokuk. Explain how slugs benefit them and ask the cousin to write a letter to their Senator and Representative.

Those that benefit don't know they benefit because they don't know. The slugs are much too silent about the service they provide as passengers.

quote:
Originally posted by Bob
[br]I would like to request any information that slugs may have on potential allies in our fight against HOT, ... There must be some allies we havent identified.

dickboyd@aol.com

Posted By: dickboyd
Date Posted: 27 Dec 2004 at 2:40pm

In addition to allies, slugs need to identify their potential enemies. The forces of evil and the powers of darkness. Slugs need to understand how to counter the FOE and POD.

Car dealers are going to be your sworn enemies. Swing them over to your side by explaining that a car is needed to get from the house to the slug lot. In slow sales times, car dealers must rent vast lots to hold their inventory. Are dealers competing with slugs for available parking? Explain to them that every dollar spent on VRE or mass transit takes food off their table. Their children may starve.

Politicians have at least 50% unemployment. If politicians lose an election, they have Commissions, Consultancies and Boards to provide income. Joe Alexander goes to work for Parsons Brinkerhoff to sell trains. Stan Paris goes to the St. Lawrence Seaway Commission. Marie Travesky goes to Bellomo McGee. Slugs have no employment opportunity for unemployed politicians. Find a champion and keep them in office.

To stay in office, politicians need publicity. Metropolitan Planning Organizations is one venue. In northern Virginia and DC, the Council of Government is that venue. Do slugs ever attend or follow the deliberations of COG? Slugs are too small a group to swing an election. Form a coalition with other transportation advocates. Reject coalitions with the FOE and POD.

Mass transit advocates are slug's worst enemy. They appear in sheep's clothing offering guaranteed ride home programs. Look closely at the fine print. If there is bus service, you aren't eligible. If there is enough demand for ride home, mass transit uses that as a sales lead to initiate a route. Mass transit is VERY expensive.

The next step up from slugs is car pools. Some car pools may look at slugs as competitors for parking. Carpools are even a smaller group than slugs. But slugs can't afford to have any more enemies than what they have now. Swing the car pools over to your side.

Van operators may look at slugs as competitors. Van operators should look at slugs as a market base. Slugs, carpools and vans all need passengers. Work out a united recruiting effort.

Homeowners (maybe I should make that singular) can be enemies if they go to city hall and complain about parking on "their" street. They don't want a repeat of what happens around the high schools. They can't get out of their driveways. Get the Civic Associations and their councils on your side.

Originally posted by Bob
[br]I would like to request any information that slugs may have on potential allies in our fight against HOT, (at least in its current form).

dickboyd@aol.com

Posted By: dickboyd
Date Posted: 27 Dec 2004 at 3:04pm

Recruiting a slug.

Advertisers pay big bucks to get their message out. The sales price of a house includes about 6% real estate commission. Maybe a third of that goes to advertising. Check out the number of page of real estate ads in the paper. The sales price of a car has similar cost for advertising. Check out the TV ads and the number of ads in the paper.

Slugs don't have any money for advertising.

So how does a slug get the word out?

What is your experience in standing in a check out line? Has anyone ever talked to you? Have you ever talked to anyone?

Try this on for size. As you approach the end of a check out line ask the person in front of you if that is THEIR line. You may get a blank look. But then they recognize that you are asking if this is the end of the line.

If they don't appear to be friendly, end the conversation.

If they say yes, ask if you can use THEIR line. If they say yes and appear to be friendly ask if there is a fee for using THEIR line.
If they say there is no fee for using THEIR line, thank them and ask if it is OK to pay the clerk at the end.

If they still appear friendly or at least haven't called store security, make the offhand comment that you don't like waiting in line and you hope they operate THEIR line efficiently.

If they are still friendly comment that slug lines are the only lines you are willing to wait in. If they ask what a slug line is give a short explanation. Casual carpool might be too long. If they are still curious, give them the address to Dave's web page where they can find a slug lot near them.

Change the conversation. If they want to continue the discussion of slugs, let them, but don't get obnoxious. Follow the golden rule. Not the one that says he who has the gold makes the rules. The first golden rule. Do as you would be done by.

So how does this promote slugging? If a person recognizes that a check out line does not belong to them but recognizes your courtesy of not cutting in and going the extra step of making sure they aren't cutting in, they can recognize the benefits of slugging. But a check out line isn't the venue for explaining the details.

In addition to the person you are talking too, there may be three of four others that overhear the conversation.

Originally posted by Bob
[br]I would like to request any information that slugs may have on potential allies in our fight against HOT, (at least in its current form).

dickboyd@aol.com

Posted By: shirons
Date Posted: 29 Dec 2004 at 9:07am

You may have noticed on the front page of this web site a request to RSVP if you plan to attend the meeting on Jan. 5. I apologize for having to request that, but I reserved a room that can only hold 35 people and by county rules if an organization host more than 30 people they have to carry private liablity insurance. I've looked into aquiring liablity insurance for such an event and have found it to be in the high$100's for just one event.

Having seen the interest of this topic I've realized that we could quickly grow to over 30 people. So I've had to ask for RSVP. If you have already indicated on this message board that you plan to attend I've got you. If you haven't and plan to attend please do drop me a line at hotlanes@scotthirons.com.

The purpose of this meeting is primarily to get organized with a unified message with regards to opposition to HOT Lanes. At the bottom of this message is the draft agenda I'm working.

I think in the very near future, after we come together to get through the first pains of organization, we can have future fourms in which we interact with elected officials with a greater number of people (if elected officials participate we can rely on them to reserve space and deal with the insurance stuff).

Again, I apologize for the inconvience of having to RSVP, but the good news is folks appear engergized!

Draft Agenda:
1. Welcome And Introduction
2. Hot Lanes Brief Discussion Time Limit 15 Minutes
3. Why Are HOT Lanes A Bad Idea Time Limit 15 Minutes
4. How Do We Fight HOT Lanes
5. Who Are Our Potential Allies
6. Where Do We Go From Here?
-Short Term Goals
-Long Term Goals

Posted By: dickboyd
Date Posted: 29 Dec 2004 at 1:59pm

Originally posted by shirons
[br]You may have noticed on the front page of this web site a request to RSVP if you plan to attend the meeting on Jan. 5. I apologize for having to request that, but I reserved a room that can only hold 35 people and by county rules if an organization host more than 30 people they have to carry private liablity insurance. I've looked into aquiring liablity insurance for such an event and have found it to be in the high$100's for just one event....]

Thank you for the organizing effort. The requirement for insurance smacks down the right of assembly. I can see a nominal fee for janitor or security services, but insurance for a public meeting in a public place? The County self insures, if I guess correctly, for Board of Supervisor meetings and the like. The County probably charges some housekeeping fees for meetings in libraries, fire stations, supervisors offices and the like.

Not to make too much of an issue of the public meeting thing, but any complaints about inurance should NOT come from the slugs. The forces of evil will depict you in the media as a bunch of whining law breaking cry babies.

To recruit an ally, find some other group that has had a similar request to pay for insurance. Most groups already do carry some type of liability insurance for events that happen at their meetings. Those groups, when asked for insurance, pull out their policy and show where they already have insurance.

Please don't ask to piggy back on their insurance as it could not only void their insurance, but put them in a finacial bind.

Easiest solution is find someone to insure the slug group for meetings. But since there is no formal organization, insurance like errors and ommissions, liability for accidents and the like would fall to an individual. There needs to be some type of corporate shield to protect individuals.

One way to satisfy the meeting requirement insurance is to find an existing commission and have them host your meeting. Traffic safety is one venue, transportation commission is another. There may be an education group or two, but have the officers check very carefully about what topics can be discussed at their meetings.

For instance, a PTA meeting could host a slug presentation as a source of revenue topic. The slugs could present to the PTA the opportunity cost of building parking lots and advertising for slugs as more beneficial than placing more concrete. The money not spent on concrete could be used to get the band new instruments or compenste the teachers.

If those commissions don't want to host the slugs side of the story, use the media to pillory the commissions for failure to hear ALL sides of the story. That approach is rather dicey. Walk on eggshells.

The agenda is a good one. Concentrate on finding slugs willing to reach out to the community to spread the word.

dickboyd@aol.com

Posted By: dickboyd
Date Posted: 29 Dec 2004 at 2:13pm

Thank you for the considerable effort. In my opinion, being against something will only draw support from those that already oppose.

Machiavelli advised the Prince not to change anything. Changes only draw enmity of the incumbent and only luke warm support of those to benefit.

I would suggest that you invite, or at least discuss that other side of the story. I get the feel that this group likes the HO part but disagrees with the T part.

What are the threats?

1.That the HOt lanes will be operated at capacity and not free flow?

2. That communting cost, both in dollars and time will increase astronmically.

More later, I have to go.

quote:
Originally posted by shirons

Draft Agenda:
1. Welcome And Introduction
2. Hot Lanes Brief Discussion Time Limit 15 Minutes
3. Why Are HOT Lanes A Bad Idea Time Limit 15 Minutes
4. How Do We Fight HOT Lanes
5. Who Are Our Potential Allies
6. Where Do We Go From Here?
-Short Term Goals
-Long Term Goals

dickboyd@aol.com

Posted By: dickboyd
Date Posted: 31 Dec 2004 at 1:20pm

Originally posted by Bob
[br]I would like to request any information that slugs may have on potential allies in our fight against HOT,... I think that by adding thousands of cars, HOT will have a big negative impact on air quality."

HOt cuts both ways. The automobile engine produces the most pollution when changing speeds and from cold starts. Councils of Governments (COGs) focus on reducing time spent idling. The target should be to reduce the number of speed changes and the number of cold starts. Free flow reduces the number of speed changes. If HOt does add cars, something was wrong about the High Occupancy part of the design.

"I have also thought about the various "green" groups such as Sierra Club which should be pro HOV."

The Sierra Club often acts as a marketing arm of mass transit to the detriment of free flow. The well intended ecologist does not recognize being bamboozled by VRE or METRO. VRE and METRO continue to poach slug lines for passengers rather than targeting the drive alone.

"At one time I wrote a letter to AAA, which often takes political positions, but they never wrote back, so they may be pro HOT."

The HOt discussion is too early. There may be political breezes, but no political wind. Keep puffing.

"On another occasion I wrote to Omniride, but unfortunately got a pro HOT response."

The various transportation commissions, NVTC, Prince William and Rapahanok, etc., are political captives of mass transit. If you are a passenger, their attitutude is that you MUST be in METRO, VRE or any of the myriad of govenment run bus systems.

dickboyd@aol.com

Posted By: shirons
Date Posted: 06 Jan 2005 at 11:03am

We held our first meeting of commuters concerned about the HOT Lane proposals last night. We had some very good discussion and are developing a plan to move forward. We'll be posting more information soon regarding this effort.

We also learned that Supervisor Corey Stewart of the Prince William County Board of Supervisors is opposed to the HOT Lane proposals and is a willing ally in our battle. We are going to attempt to arrange a 2nd meeting and have Supervisor Stewart participate. As we learn more we'll post the information.

Also,Delegate Scott Lingamfelter has a mailer survey on the street in which he asks about support for HOT Lanes. You can also take the survey online: http://www.va31st.com/survey2.asp.

Posted By: JiggaJynx
Date Posted: 06 Jan 2005 at 11:39am

If you take Del. Lingamfelter's survey, use this link without the period underlined: http://www.va31st.com/survey2.asp

Scott Hirons hosted a good meeting last night, allowing attendees to vent (much needed) while still capturing ideas on mission, goals, and actions. Hope lots more of you can attend any future meetings.

Posted By: carleric
Date Posted: 06 Jan 2005 at 11:59am

I had to miss it, so is there any chance of posting something like a transcript (I know, probably not) or a digest or something to let us who wanted to be there but couldn't know specifically what was discussed?

Posted By: shirons
Date Posted: 06 Jan 2005 at 12:56pm

I'm trying to get as much done as I can today, but don't think I'll finish. I have to run out of town to a family funeral tonight through the weekend. I'm hoping to have a summary and next steps information sheet together and posted by Monday. But in short Writing Letters - - GREAT!!!! Start writing! Both letters to editor for submission to local papers and letters to local elected leaders are needed.

Delegate Jeff Frederick of Woodbridge has a survey on his website also. Although he doesn't specifically ask about HOT Lanes he does ask how you'd like to pay for transportation solutions and at the bottom allows for entering free text for your priorities for 2005. http://www.va52.com "Take Survey" to the right.

Posted By: dickboyd
Date Posted: 06 Jan 2005 at 2:04pm

Governor Schwarzenegger in his state of the state message pointed out that W owes California big time. Not because they voted for Kerry, but because California is a donor state. California gets back 80 cents of every federal tax dollar collected in the state.

Dick boyd's comment: The donated 20% is about the same as the amount of federal taxes collected in an eastern state like Virginia.

Political analysts pointed out that W would not have won Ohio had it not been for Arnold campaigning in Ohio. Arnold mentioned, in his speech, that W owes California big time.

I believe Virginia is an acceptor state. Virginia gets back more money from the Federal Government than is collected in taxes.

If the "t" part of HOt is defeated, how then will any roads or road maintenance be financed? How will the TransTexas highway from Galveston to Detroit be financed? Hopefully not by Californians.

dickboyd@aol.com

Posted By: dickboyd
Date Posted: 06 Jan 2005 at 2:13pm

Originally posted by JiggaJynx
[br]If you take Del. Lingamfelter's survey, use this link without the period underlined: http://www.va31st.com/survey2.asp

Gotta love those political surveys. Have you stopped beating your spouse? Yes or No answers only, please.

Do you think Lingamfelter is doing a good job. Yes or Yes answers only, please.

Where is the effort to promote slugs and slugging.

Is this group against the high occupancy part of HOt also?

dickboyd@aol.com

Posted By: JiggaJynx
Date Posted: 06 Jan 2005 at 2:32pm

The group wants to preserve the HO part...for every vehicle. As for Lingamfelger, I reserve judgment. I am in his district but did not vote for him. When I shook hands with him before the last election, I asked specifically for his plan to improve the transportation mess. His answer was vague. In addition, growth in his district seems to be unchecked, and the roads are not keeping up with the growth. Yeah, I know that's true everywhere, but I can only speak from my experience. An afternoon trip home from the commuter lot that took me 20 minutes 4 years ago now takes 30 minutes of sitting through lights 2 or 3 times on Prince William Parkway, Dale Blvd, and Minnieville. At that rate, the 20-minute trip will take an hour before I'm eligible to retire.

Posted By: dickboyd
Date Posted: 07 Jan 2005 at 4:35am

UNDERUTILIZED????

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/07/national/07intel.html?th

Virginia mulls new challenges to hybrids in HOV lanes
Featured Advertiser

The boom in hybrid cars
is cutting into
the efficiency of the travel lanes, a task force reports.

State task force and Federal Highway Administration urge state to eliminate special highway privileges for clean-fuel vehicles.

By EDIE GROSS

Date published: 1/7/2005

Hybrid-car drivers who enjoy special access to Virginia's High Occupancy Vehicle lanes are seeing that privilege challenged yet again.

A task force looking at how to improve traffic flow in the state's HOV lanes has recommended for the second time that lawmakers no longer give hybrid owners carte blanche to use the faster lanes. And federal officials are once again pressuring the state to reconsider the pro-hybrid policy.

Under a state law enacted in the mid-1990s, owners of so-called "clean special fuel" cars can use the HOV lanes without the required three occupants other cars must have. The law is scheduled to expire on July 1, 2006, though hybrid owners have pushed for its extension.

The legislation was designed to encourage sales of the fuel-efficient vehicles and promote use of what were then underutilized travel lanes.

It worked. As of October, 5,660 hybrid vehicles were registered in Virginia, 95 percent of them in the Fredericksburg area and Northern Virginia.

But in a report released late yesterday, the state task force said that hybrid car use--particularly in Northern Virginia--has increased so much that it's becoming "a major contributor to the eroding performance of the HOV lanes on I-95."

Hybrids like the Toyota Prius and Honda Insight, which run on a mix of gasoline and electricity, now account for up to 19 percent of the cars in the I-95 HOV lanes during the peak morning hours, the report states.

The HOV lanes were designed to carry no more than 1,800 cars per lane per hour, the report says. But they're carrying about 1,900 cars per lane per hour now.

The report offers a number of recommendations, including requiring hybrids to carry three occupants if their drivers want to use HOV lanes; tightening the standards used to define a "clean special fuel" vehicle; increasing the plate fees for those vehicles from $10 a year to $500 a year and using the extra money for HOV- lane maintenance and enforcement; and allowing the existing exemption for hybrid owners to expire on July 1, 2006.

The group made some of these same recommendations in 2003, not long after it was formed to crack down on HOV violators. Hybrid owners criticized the effort then, and likely will again.

The Federal Highway Administration has also weighed in on the issue. Federal law gives cars that don't use gasoline special access to HOV lanes.

But the agency sent the Virginia Department of Transportation a letter in April 2003 indicating the state may be violating federal law by giving those same privileges to hybrids, which use some gas.

At the time, Congress was considering legislation that would allow states to grant HOV access to hybrids. So the Federal Highway Administration agreed to delay action against Virginia until Congress finished its work.

The U.S. House of Representatives has passed two measures giving states more power over that sort of thing, but the Senate still has not, said Chris Connelly, spokesman for U.S. Rep. Jo Ann Davis, R-1st District.

The Federal Highway Administration sent a second letter to VDOT on Dec. 8, 2004, warning Virginia that it shouldn't allow hybrid cars to cause congestion in the HOV lanes.

Division Administrator Roberto Fonseca-Martinez asked VDOT to analyze the impact of hybrids on the HOV lanes and to consider eliminating the special privileges for hybrid drivers. He asked that VDOT send him a report on its progress by Feb. 28.

"It has recently come to our attention that the number of hybrid vehicles using the Northern Virginia HOV lanes along Interstates 395/95 has greatly increased over the last 8 months. Also we have learned that the operation of the HOV lanes is beginning to degrade, which could directly affect the original intent of providing a travel incentive for transit, vanpools and carpools," he wrote. "We are very concerned."

For a link to the entire HOV task force report, visit fredericksburg .com.

To reach EDIE GROSS: 540/374-5428 egross@freelancestar.com

Date published: 1/7/2005

dickboyd@aol.com

Posted By: goober
Date Posted: 07 Jan 2005 at 10:05am

I attended the Wednesday night meeting and it was very good. There were a number of side bars, but that�s to be expected when everyone feels the need to vent.

We should be grateful that Scott Hirons has been so diligent in helping spearhead and organize this effort against HOT. I have absolutely no affiliation with Scott but I admire someone who understands the politics behind these type of issues and willing to help resolve them.

However, I�ve been pondering a point made by a gentleman that said he would help but didn�t think that we could win. I believe the reason he said was that we offer no real positive alternatives to HOT. In turn, what else can we offer as solutions that can make these supervisors look good since the contractors have made a convincing pitch with their proposals (my interpretation of what he said). There are a number of things that can be done to help improve HOV usage and flow, but I don�t think they make a major impact. HOT will have a major impact and make the supervisors look good to the majority of non-HOVusers in trying to solve our traffic problems. In the eyes of the supervisors, how is keeping the status quo a solution?

Nevertheless, I will do my part in helping to defeat HOT.

Goober

Posted By: wdossel
Date Posted: 07 Jan 2005 at 12:25pm

quote:
Originally posted by dickboyd
[br]
(snipped for brevity)
Dick boyd's comment: The donated 20% is about the same as the amount of federal taxes collected in an eastern state like Virginia.

I believe Virginia is an acceptor state. Virginia gets back more money from the Federal Government than is collected in taxes.

dickboyd@aol.com

I wonder...during the 80's CA got more than it's share of federal defense $$'s (especially aerospace) while states like VA were shorted on federal impact $$'s. Lest one think the federal footprint isn't very large, live in Hampton Roads for a few years and see what the area is like when a couple of carrier strike groups leave/return from deployment. That impact extends to schools, infrastructure, etc. Many of those svc members are not VA residents either -- nor should they be compelled to. Net effect is/was still a shortfall in revenue that has to be accounted for in some way -- either increase in federal impact money, raise taxes that impact everyone (e.g., sales/property) or try and make do with less. From appearances sake, it seems that option three is the option of choice [V]

- Will

Posted By: SpongeBob
Date Posted: 07 Jan 2005 at 1:04pm

Um, pardon me, Misters, but what's the California thing got to do with Looking for Allies to Battle HOT? I know Dick Boyd lives in Cali now, but to say that we should have tolls on OUR roads because that will somehow redress a debatable inter-state tax imbalance... well, that makes just a whole lot of sense. I'm sure ready to pay.

Kidding aside, I appreciate Dick's comments and experience, and am glad he's part of our discussion. But I view California's federal tax deficit vis-a-vis Virginia as a mere deposit on what they owe us for the creation of reality TV, the Game Show Network, Joanie Loves Chachi, and a general cultural fixation on silicone enhancement.

(Hmm. No one's ever called a sponge a gentleman before.)

Posted By: JiggaJynx
Date Posted: 07 Jan 2005 at 1:18pm

Wednesday's HOT meeting made the news in the Northern Virginia Journal: http://www.jrnl.com/PDFs/nva/friday.pdf
I won't reproduce it here, since I don't have permission from the Journal.

Posted By: Road Warrior
Date Posted: 07 Jan 2005 at 3:03pm

quote:
Originally posted by JiggaJynx
[br]Wednesday's HOT meeting made the news in the Northern Virginia Journal: http://www.jrnl.com/PDFs/nva/friday.pdf
I won't reproduce it here, since I don't have permission from the Journal.

It also made the Washington Post (front page below the fold) which I also will not reproduce but here is a link (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A54561-2005Jan6.html).

John

Posted By: JiggaJynx
Date Posted: 07 Jan 2005 at 3:28pm

Actually, they're different articles. The Journal article was written by the journalist who attended Wednesday's meeting.

Posted By: dickboyd
Date Posted: 07 Jan 2005 at 10:22pm

quote:
Originally posted by SpongeBob
[br]Um, pardon me, Misters, but what's the California thing got to do with Looking for Allies to Battle HOT? I know Dick Boyd lives in Cali now, but to say that we should have tolls on OUR roads because that will somehow redress a debatable inter-state tax imbalance... well, that makes just a whole lot of sense. I'm sure ready to pay.
...
(Hmm. No one's ever called a sponge a gentleman before.)

One of the first inroads on Shirley HOV rules was Congressman Stan Paris' Juliette Lowe bill to wrest control of HOV rules from Virginia/DC/FHWA and put the rule making in Congress. This resulted in lowering the HOV requirements. Politically, it puts review of HOV rules out of reach of mere mortals. Think campaign contributions.

Another inroad was to allow motorcycles on the UNDERUTILIZED Shirley reversible lanes.

Hybrid vehicle is yet another inroad.

Lack of enforcement is another inroad.

Lack of passengers is yet another inroad.

A free flowing highway at 1,800 vehicles per lane per hour will look empty. That is two seconds between vehicles. About 180 feet at 60 MPH. Can't have that when cars are travelling 2,400 to 3,100 vehicles per hour in the regular lanes at bumper to bumper accordion conditions.

California is trying to get tolls of one sort or another. The tolls would be dedicated to "transportation". Whatever that means. At least the money won't go to Boston to tunnel under a river or to Virginia to build another Dulles Greenway.

dickboyd@aol.com

Posted By: dickboyd
Date Posted: 07 Jan 2005 at 10:30pm

Arlington County provides fire protection, ambulance service, schooling and so on for the federal government presence in the area. Same for DC. Where Dick Boyd lives, Beale AFB is the tall pole in the economic tent. The county provides some police, fire and ambulance support. With BRAC, localities are in competition to retain bases. I don't think one area should pick up more of the defense bill than some other area.

Make do with less? What a concept. Are you a Marine?

quote:
Originally posted by wdossel
[br]
quote:
Originally posted by dickboyd
[br]
(snipped for brevity)
Dick boyd's comment: The donated 20% is about the same as the amount of federal taxes collected in an eastern state like Virginia.

I believe Virginia is an acceptor state. Virginia gets back more money from the Federal Government than is collected in taxes.

dickboyd@aol.com

I wonder...during the 80's CA got more than it's share of federal defense $$'s (especially aerospace) while states like VA were shorted on federal impact $$'s. Lest one think the federal footprint isn't very large, live in Hampton Roads for a few years and see what the area is like when a couple of carrier strike groups leave/return from deployment. That impact extends to schools, infrastructure, etc. Many of those svc members are not VA residents either -- nor should they be compelled to. Net effect is/was still a shortfall in revenue that has to be accounted for in some way -- either increase in federal impact money, raise taxes that impact everyone (e.g., sales/property) or try and make do with less. From appearances sake, it seems that option three is the option of choice [V]

- Will

dickboyd@aol.com

Posted By: dickboyd
Date Posted: 07 Jan 2005 at 10:40pm

Muschi said: "yeah! let's pave paradise and put up a parking lot!

Except you can restore paradise right now by filling the empty seats of the drive alone cars. Hard part is to get around the car advertising that tells people they are better off sitting in traffic dreaming of being on a wide open road than actually being on a wide open road.

Hard part is to convince real estate people to promote slugging. But real estate isn't interested in providing more disposable income for housing. The real estate market has more than enough buyers and more than enough financial institutions willing to make the loans.

Have you ever wondered who is driving all those Mercedes SUV on Shirley Highway between 2 and 4 AM on Sunday? Those are real estate agents zipping along at 90 MPH so they can tell their clients: "Just the other day I drove from Richmond to DC in 17 minutes." OK, I exaggerate, it was really 16.

At one time real estate agents promoted slugging. One, as I remember, was Routh Robbins. But then they came under pressure for using insider information to contact military people coming to the area. A typical mailing might contain information on where a particular academy class was clustered.

dickboyd@aol.com

Posted By: dickboyd
Date Posted: 08 Jan 2005 at 11:33pm

Walt Starling recently passed away. His obituary was in the Washington Post.

Walt Starling was reported to be among the first fixed wing pilots to report traffic as well as fly the airplane.

Walt left at least two contributions to the language of traffic in the Washington, DC area.

The first was was Inner and Outer Beltway. Even to this day you will see signs indicating inner and outer beltway.

The second contribution was to refer to congestion as NORMAL. The word normal to describe congestion so often that even to this day motorists in and around DC beleive congestion to be the normal state of affairs. Even to the extent that any effort to releive congestion is to be treated as deviant behavior.

Some of Walt Starling's followers, Captain Dan, Andy Parks and Bob Marbourg picked up on the cry of freeing Shirley Highway's reversible lanes. They harped on the UNDERUTILAZATION of the reversible lanes. Users of the reversible lanes contacted the radio stations that carried these traffic reporters asking them to reconsider their inflamatory remarks.

It wasn't until some of the listeners went directly to the advertisers and complained about the inflamatory nature of their broadcasts that the stations provided guidance. If memory serves me, Captain Dan left the area for several years as a result.

In those days there were some slugs that played hardball.

Should you care to contribute to Walt Starling's memorial:
http://www.friendsofwaltstarling.com/

dickboyd@aol.com

Posted By: dickboyd
Date Posted: 09 Jan 2005 at 12:45am

Everyone in elected office is a pothole politician. If a candidate does not know how to handle potholes, they will never get elected let alolne reelected.

Representatives as well as Senators bring the knowledge of pothole politics with them to higher office.

First there have to be potholes (or congestion). Second, there has to be someone to complain about the pothole. Third there has to be the APPEARANCE of action. Finally, the opponent has to be shown as taking NO action, or the WRONG action. The election then becomes a slam dunk.

In the early days of motoring, one farmer was noted for his good Samaritan action of using a team of mules to rescue wayward motorists from a particularly sticky mudhole. A reporter for the local paper decided to do a story on this kindly soul. When he got to the farm, the reporter was surprised at how neat everything was. Not a weed to be seen in the fields, the barn AND house were freshly painted, the flower bed was beautiful. The team of mules used to rescue errant motorists was sleek, well fed and well rested.

The reporter commented to the farmer that it must really be difficult to keep up the farm after helping all those stuck motorists. To which the farmer replied. The farming isn't too hard, I've been doing that all my life. The mules don't mind cause it keeps them fit as fiddles.

The hard part is hauling water down to the road at night.

The moral of the story? Don't rely on a politician to repair potholes or relieve congestion. Fix the pothole yourself. Relieve congestion yourself.

dickboyd@aol.com

Posted By: dickboyd
Date Posted: 09 Jan 2005 at 2:08pm

What I have NOT seen on this discussion is an estimate of how much a paved road a car requires. Nor have I seen a discussion for how to pay for that paved road.

How much land does a car need? Six feet by sixteen feet in a car dealers storage lot? Eight feet by twenty-four feet for really tight parking? (Expect to pay more for ding repairs). Ten feet by thirty feet for comfortable parking? 300 square feet for your car and 50 square feet for your cubicle?

What is the floor area ratio at work? How many employees per parking space? How many square feet per employee?

Each parking space at a METRO lot is about $15,000 for at grade parking. It goes up to about $45,000 per parking space for storied garages. Parking in DC or Tysons is in the range of $30,000 per parking space.

Check Black's at your commercial real estate brokers.

If you want to keep chickens in northern Virginia, I believe you have to have a minimum of seven acres. No minimum required for car ownership. Compare that to Japan where you have to have proof of where you will park your car.

A parked car is useless. For the car to move, roads are needed. Minimum lane width is twelve feet. Then there are shoulders. Modern development calls for a minimum forty foot easement or county ownership for two lanes. Safety requirements of a minimum of one car length space for each ten MPH below 30 MPH and two car lengths for each ten MPH over 30 MPH.

A car traveling 30 MPH needs a minimum space 20 feet by 60 feet. 1,200 square feet or four times as much land as when parked. The price of that much road is about $60,000.

A car traveling 65 MPH requires a freeway type road. Something on the order of 300 feet right of way for six lanes. 50 feet width per lane. 200 feet length or 10,000 square feet or eight times as much land as a 30 MPH road. The price of that much road is about $200,000 in northern Virginia. What is the price of a quarter acre lot in northern Virginia these days?

Somebody check my math and my estimates. I'm pulling these numbers from memory of 25 years ago.

As a cross check, I've heard estimates of $4 million per lane mile in northern Virginia. A lane mile supports about 30 cars safely or 65 cars at capacity. That estimate would require $134,000 per car for free flow and $65,000 for capacity.

Capacity is evil. Free flow is good.

Roads built using those prices should last about 30 years. Free flow would require $4,500 per year. But factor in maintenance and cost of loan and the price goes to $9,000 per year. Roughly $25 per day for the road. Existing roads are probably about a tenth of those prices. About $2.50 per day per car to pay for and maintain the existing roads. Fuel taxes might amount to $1.50. Where does the other dollar come from? Bookkeeping magic? If you expect to get the money from California remember that my governator can beat up your governor.

Mass transit numbers on a passenger basis are about four times greater. Mass transit needs parking due to the housing land use policy.

All this so far is sixth grade math. Cost estimating transportation might be a good project for the students at Thomas Jefferson High School. Might make an interesting science fair project. Even the advanced placement students might tackle this if one or two parents asked for some help in how to finance their college education.

Lets see, $3,000 per year for commuting costs or $3,000 per year for a college fund? Which is more important? Those pesky kids are a real pain, so why not opt for the expensive commute? Besides, Californians will pick up the education tab for our kids. See the comment about what our governator can do to your governor.

And if you, as slugs, don't know the cost of a road or the cost of mass transit, how do you expect the drive alones who are mere mortals to know?

Bottom line? Promote the TOLL part of HOt and identify the upfront costs. Make sure the drive alones know what those costs are and that a viable alternative is to use what we got. Make sure the drive alone knows the valuable contribution slugs make to funding school systems.

If you should be tempted to ask California for the money, remember that our governator can beat up your governor. Did I repeat that?

The road I live on is a county service area. We tax ourselves and build and maintain the road ourselves. The closest you have in northern Virginia is homeowners associations.

dickboyd@aol.com

Posted By: dickboyd
Date Posted: 09 Jan 2005 at 2:15pm

Dave Letterman made the comment that he is 57 years old and has not found a use for algebra. Dave was talking to a child actress about her schooling.

Jay Leno?? So if those icons don't need math skills, what about mere mortals? Is Sesame Street's bigger than and less than sufficient?

Or should some whiz kids tackle the problem of cost of transportation? After all they don't know any better. They haven't formed an emotional attachment to mass transit or drive alone.

dickboyd@aol.com

Posted By: dickboyd
Date Posted: 10 Jan 2005 at 12:22am

PPTA
CTB
TCC

Alphabet soup. PPTA is the Puplic Private Transportation Act. Passed in 1995 it promotes teaming to solve transportation problems. I'm surprised a slug hasn't read it and set up some type of business to capitalize on it. So far only engineering firms (e.g. Fluor Daniel) have gotten any mileage, so to speak.

CTB is the Commonwealth Transportation Board. This is the 14 member group that controls transportation in Virginia. Kate Hanley of Fairfax is the closest thing to a slug representative. Although the rural at large and the urban at large members could easily be swayed to provide more slug support.

TCC is the Transportation Coordinating Council. This is the group that puts together Northern Virginia's transportation plan.

This is the tip of the iceberg in terms of a disclosure of who the players are and the role they play in Virginia transportation.

Some Counties still have Transportation Advisory Boards. My impression is that the people appointed to those boards have been appointed more to muzzle them than to seek input.

Potomac and Rapahanock (SP?) Transportation District or some such title is a major player. As is the Northern Virginia Transportation Planning District (or whatever they call themselves) and the Northern Virginia Transportation Commission.

J. Kenneth Klinge and John Mason are probably still major players.

Slugs need a paid representative. Problem is in how to identify funds to pay that person. Another problem is to recruit a person with enough interest and a high threshold of pain to follow up on items of importance to slugs.

High Occupancy toll won't work without the high occupancy part. None of the transit groups seem to think it is their job to get passengers. Only slugs, car pools and van pools seem to be recruiting passengers. The message from every other sector is to support mass transit so someone else will ride and leave more highway space for me.

dickboyd@aol.com

Posted By: SpongeBob
Date Posted: 10 Jan 2005 at 12:34pm

I disagree about lobbyists, paid or otherwise. What we need is a viable alternative publicly stated that

1. Is so full of common sense that politicians can get behind it
2. Retains the all-important revenue stream promised by toll roads
3. Keeps HOV for HOVehicles
4. Somehow eases congestion
5. Pays heed to the vast, vast majority of people who don't use, or even like, the danged HOV lanes.

When that alternative is identified, then politicians and others who can promote it will self-identify. We won't have to pay for lobbyists.

Trying to fight toll roads in the name of slugging is a waste of time. Nobody cares. Hell, hardly anybody in the area even knows what a slug is. WTOP called us, last week, "so-called slugs", a clear indication that our sub-culture is subber than we think it is.

Posted By: dickboyd
Date Posted: 10 Jan 2005 at 3:19pm

quote:
Originally posted by SpongeBob
[br]I disagree about lobbyists, paid or otherwise. What we need is a viable alternative publicly stated that
<>
5. Pays heed to the vast, vast majority of people who don't use, or even like, the danged HOV lanes.
<> hardly anybody in the area even knows what a slug is. WTOP called us, last week, "so-called slugs", a clear indication that our sub-culture is subber than we think it is.

Dick Boyd Agrees. Lobbyists are not the answer. Lobbyists talk to politicians. Politicians don't commute. Or if they do, they claim diplomatic immunity so they can drive alone on the HOV lanes. Slugging needs passengers. Politicians are not passengers.

The person Dick Boyd was suggesting should be paid is the person that recruits slugs. Why don't people know about slugs? Because the slugs keep themselves a deep dark secret. Slugs roll over to claims that slugs are unpatriotic mass transit haters.

There is a position called a Transportation Management specialist. One manifestation is the Transportation store in Crystal Underground. When slugs were more active, you could find slug parking as well as promote new slug areas. But then METRO moved in and the place took on a glitz that said METRO and VRE were the only way to go for mass transit. I'm surprised VRE hasn' taken over the elevators. Transportation management specialists are anti-HOV. There is no dedicated cash flow to promote slugging.

Why don't people like HOV? Because there are so many "lobbyists" warning of the jack booted thugs that will bayonet you into ride sharing. And other lobbyists that will not be able to walk across the street to visit their sainted mothers if the insidious threat of slugging is allowed to flourish. Since they don't like ride sharing neither should you. Wassamatterchew?

Dick Boyd lives in California. Even from that distance it is apparent that residents of northern Virginia would benefit by slugging. Besides, the money otherwise spent on placing more concrete could be better spent on the school system. The time wasted in congetion could be used to plan the PTA potluck special.

dickboyd@aol.com

Posted By: dickboyd
Date Posted: 10 Jan 2005 at 3:21pm

quote:
Originally posted by SpongeBob
[br]I disagree about lobbyists, paid or otherwise. What we need is a viable alternative publicly stated that

1. Is so full of common sense that politicians can get behind it

Common sense and politician in the same sentence? Are you sure you live in northern Virginia? :=)

dickboyd@aol.com

Posted By: dickboyd
Date Posted: 11 Jan 2005 at 2:15pm

quote:
Originally posted by RobertLangDirect
[br]From MJ on another HOV topic:
http://www.wtop.com/index.php?nid=25&sid=385255

Some environmentalists stress the states should also be studying how the lanes would connect to bus and rail service, to encourage commuters to use mass transit.

Check those "environmentalists" very carefully. Should the states also be studying how to use the existing empty seats? Or does that involve pot helmeted thugs bayoneting people into slug lines?

Those self same "envirornmentalists" will chew up the slugs and spit them out if the slugs are to be so bold as to point out efficient use of empty seats in the cars of the drive alones.

Check out DCEN/FOE. DC environmental network, Friends of the Earth for an organized environtmental group. Slugs need an organization similar to DCEN/FOE.

An example of a DCEN/FOE project:

"Defenders of Potomac River Parkland
Media contact: Sally Strain, 202-363-4546, seawalk@starpower.net,
www.savethecanal.org

Citizens Decry Building of Private Recreation Facility in C&O Canal
National Historical Park..."

dickboyd@aol.com

Posted By: shirons
Date Posted: 11 Jan 2005 at 8:27pm

Summation of the 1/5/05 Slug meeting on HOT Lanes:

Good discussion on the HOT lane issue and other general slugging/ commuting issues. We attempted to come up with a charter of what are purpose was and what we wanted to accomplish.

Our primary purpose is to keep the best HOV system in the country free. Keep HOV Free! We want to make certain HOV remains a viable and successful option for commuting in the Washington DC area and in particular on the I95&395 corridor. We want to work against threats to all forms of ridesharing. The primary threat in front of us now is HOT Lanes.

We discussed reasons why HOT Lanes are not a good solution for the corridor. In addition to the general overuse of HOV lanes and damage they�ll cause to slugging we broadened the scope to how they affect more than just commuters. First small business and the trucking industry are going to be negatively impacted. Both of them use the HOV lanes during non-HOV hours to avoid traffic congestion. If HOT Lanes are implemented no matter what time they use them their going to be paying a toll. The same goes for average citizens traveling on the weekends. Most folks in this region know that they can use the HOV lanes on weekends to make their local trips easier. With HOT Lanes they�re going to be paying a toll even on weekends. More importantly HOT Lanes are going to encourage sprawl. Most of the local communities have come to realize the benefits of building new housing near transportation nodes. When they give folks the opportunity to drive by themselves in HOT Lanes the need to build near train stations and commuter lots is going to go away. We�ll loose whatever start government has on controlling sprawl.

From there we started to discuss where do we go from here. We need to communicate our position to elected officials. We need to do it in a consolidated, unified way. We need to call and write the office of local elected officials. We need to write letters-to-the-editor to local newspapers, we need to communicate with the press via press releases and other media events to educate the general public on the dangers of HOT Lanes.

We also discussed a need to develop a viable alternative to HOT Lanes to use in our discussions with government officials. What can we offer them as a good transportation solution. We didn�t get to a point of fully developing alternatives.

We need to mention that Supervisor Corey Stewart (PWC � Occoquan) sent a representative to the meeting. He wanted to attend, but unfortunately could not. He wanted us to know that he is against HOT Lanes and supports our efforts. We want to convene again when it is convenient for Supv. Stewart to join us. I�ve emailed him asking when would be a good time for this meeting.

We left with the following priorities:
1. Recruit like minded commuters to join the effort in opposing HOT Lanes
2. Start drafting letter templates that everyone can use to send a letter to elected officials.
3. Communicate with each other to make sure we stay united.

To number 3 I have created a website http://www.savehov.org . It�s in it�s infancy, but it�s a tool we can use to publicize our stances as well as communicate with each other. There is a secure location you can sign up for on the website where we will have the ability to provide information useful to the battle such as contact information for elected officials and letter templates. I do have to warn you the security features requires you to request membership and I have to activate the membership. There maybe a 12-24 hour delay between you making the request and getting a response back from me. If you have any thoughts comments, etc. about the website and effort please don�t hesitate to share.

To those of you who attended the first meeting, thank you and if I left anything out of the summation please feel free to add to it.

Posted By: dickboyd
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2005 at 7:12pm

http://www.roanoke.com/news/roanoke%5C16993.html

Private financing of public roads in Virginia is more concept than
fact, says an analysis by an environmental group.

Little of the money spent to build roads under the state's
Public-Private Transportation Act actually comes from private sources,
according to the Southern Environmental Law Center, based in
Charlottesville....

SELC is the legal arm of the Sierra Club, Virginia chapter. It is not
surprising that they would be trying to come up with diversions such as
this.

The SELC (Southern Environmental Law Center, based in
Charlottesville.) also doesn't seem to mind that the $4 billion Dulles Rail Line
is most of the way through the PPTA process, not yet finally approved,
where Becthel would build the thing WITH NO USER FUNDING WHATSOEVER,
with the entire $4 billion coming from taxpayer largesse. This truly is
a mis-use of the PPTA process, a boondoggle, but since it is not a
highway project, the SELC is not speaking out against it.

dickboyd@aol.com

Posted By: Bob
Date Posted: 21 Jan 2005 at 8:08am

State panel advances plans for HOT lanes

VDOT will analyze contractors' detailed proposals for I-95 toll lanes

By EDIE GROSS

Date published: 1/21/2005

Two proposals to stretch commuter express lanes down Interstate 95 to Fredericksburg will get serious consideration by the Virginia Department of Transportation.

The Commonwealth Transportation Board agreed yesterday to have VDOT look at more detailed plans by both teams of builders that have offered to construct the high-occupancy toll, or HOT, lanes.

By this time next year, VDOT plans to recommend whether either proposal should move forward to construction.

Both plans would add HOT lanes from the Springfield Interchange to I-495.

One plan--submitted by Clark Construction Group, Shirley Contracting Co. and Koch Performance Roads--would also create three HOT lanes between the Springfield Interchange and U.S. 17 in Stafford.

The second plan, put forth by Fluor Virginia of Arlington, would build three HOT lanes between the 14th Street Bridge outside Washington and State Route 610 in North Stafford, and two HOT lanes from there down to Massaponax.

HOT lanes operate like HOV lanes in that cars carrying three or more occupants can use them for free. But motorists without the required number of passengers could also use the lanes--for a fee.

The Clark/Shirley/Koch team estimates that its 36-mile project will cost about $407 million and take five years to complete. Fluor's 54-mile project would cost $999.3 million and take 61/2 years to finish.

Both teams intend to use bond money, toll revenues and a loan from the Federal Highway Administration to pay for the projects.

The proposals were brought forward under the state's Public-Private Transportation Act, which allows private firms to offer unsolicited projects if those firms are willing to take on the lion's share of the financial burden.

To reach EDIE GROSS: 540/374-5428 egross@freelancestar.com

Date published: 1/21/2005

Posted By: dickboyd
Date Posted: 21 Jan 2005 at 3:23pm

quote:
Originally posted by Bob
[br]State panel advances plans for HOT lanes

VDOT will analyze contractors' detailed proposals for I-95 toll lanes

By EDIE GROSS

Date published: 1/21/2005

...--submitted by Clark Construction Group, Shirley Contracting Co. and Koch Performance Roads--would also create three HOT lanes between the Springfield Interchange and U.S. 17 in Stafford....

The second plan, put forth by Fluor Virginia of Arlington, would build three HOT lanes between the 14th Street Bridge outside Washington and State Route 610 in North Stafford, and two HOT lanes from there down to Massaponax.

HOT lanes operate like HOV lanes in that cars carrying three or more occupants can use them for free. But motorists without the required number of passengers could also use the lanes--for a fee.

The Clark/Shirley/Koch team estimates that its 36-mile project will cost about $407 million and take five years to complete. Fluor's 54-mile project would cost $999.3 million and take 61/2 years to finish.

Both teams intend to use bond money, toll revenues and a loan from the Federal Highway Administration to pay for the projects.

...

To reach EDIE GROSS: 540/374-5428 egross@freelancestar.com

Date published: 1/21/2005

Finally, some dollar figures!

How about some quick back of the envelope calculations?

Three lanes, 36 miles, $407 Million, 5 years
OR 3 to 2 lanes, 54 miles, $999.3 Million, 6-1/2 years.

Projects to be funded by bonds. Bonds raise money by borrowing. There will be an interest rate. There will also be maintenance. Conservatively, interest and maintenance double the cost of the project. Low end is $814 Million. High end is 2.59 times as expensive on a lane mile basis.

Assume the lenders want their money back [with interest] in 30 years. At the low end, that is $27.13 million per year. Assume 200 days per year of collecting tolls. That is $135,700 per day. Half in the morning and half in the afternoon. $67,830 each morning, $67,830 each afternoon. Or if tolls are collected 24 hours per day, $5,650 per hour. Some hours may be more expensive than others.

For free flow, assume 1,500 vehicles per lane-hour. That is 4,500 vehicles per hour for three lanes. About $1.25 per trip each vehicle. About $0.03 per vehicle mile.

Now comes the hard part. Toll lanes will attract motorists only when they provide time and reliability improvements over parallel routes.

Assume rush hour lasts three hours in the morning and three hours in the afternoon. That means the daily expected income of $135,700 per day has to be collected in six hours instead of 24. One-fourth the time, four times the cost. Now we are at $5 per trip or $10 per day.

This scenario of a three hour morning rush hour moves only 13,500 of drive alone commuters. The demand is for something like 20,000 commuters. Every other car will have to carry at least one passenger. Or the free flow restriction would have to be lifted. Commuters would have to settle for capacity. At capacity, 21,600 commuters would be served in drive alone mode. They would pay an additional penalty of increased commuting time and unpredictable travel.

Is unpredictable commuting time desired? That is one question at the heart of the HOT issue.

Are we willing to pay big bucks for a project only to have it stand idle 18 hours a day?

Or is free flow a preferred alternative? If free flow is preferred, how much would it cost? Free flow would mean at least 10 minutes less travel time per trip. Free flow would mean predictable travel time.

How much is your time worth? You know your hourly income and you know your yearly income. You get paid for roughly 2,000 hours every year. There are 8,766 hours in a year (remember leap year). if you are a commuter, your income is upwards of $40,000 per year. About $4.50 per hour. If you count only working hours then you are admitting that time off is worthless. You can come and mow my lawn on your time off if you insist. Saving 10 minutes per trip or 20 minutes a day would be worth about $1.50.

At one extreme, passengers could be limited to buses. Tolls could be raised to buy enough buses to carry the additional 6,500 passengers. About 130 to 150 buses should do. How much would 150 buses cost? Figures I've seen are in the range of $35 per hour plus $1.25 per mile for a bus. Would the buses attract close in commuters or more distant commuters? Using numbers like one hour for each run (empty going out to pick up passengers) and 30 miles per trip, bus cost is about $72.50 per trip. About $1.45 per ride on a 50 passenger bus. That is a tempting number. Would you ride a bus for $1.45 to avoid a toll? How high would the toll have to be to induce you into a bus? Those numbers are operating cost only and don't factor the purchase price of the bus. What do you do with the buses and their drivers outside of rush hours? Two crews with four hour work days?

As a compromise, empty seats in the cars of the drive alones could be used. These passengers are called slugs. Or casual car pools if you prefer.

HOT proposers will use capacity flow of 2,400 vehicles per hour.

Capacity means unpredictable travel times at about 80% of the posted speed.

Free flow means predictable travel times at the posted speed limits.

Is your appetite whetted? Or is your head reeling from all these numbers? Ask your sixth graders to grind the numbers. Ask your High School freshmen to review County budgets. Ask students at Thomas Jefferson what they think about commuting. By the time they join the workforce, toady's discussion is the transportation system they will inherit. Shouldn't they have a say?

dickboyd@aol.com

Posted By: dickboyd
Date Posted: 21 Jan 2005 at 3:25pm

The lead time on public works projects are measured in decades. Deciding what to do takes years and years and years. Once decided, time flies. A project may have five to ten years of review and discussion and take only one to five years to build and then last from thirty to 500 years.

HOT discussion has been around since Moses was a mess cook. The people that will use whatever decision comes from the discussion are in the sixth grade down to those still in diapers.

Would it be worth while getting the opinion of the people that would be using the system?

Some say no because they are too young to have knowledge of the alternatives.

Some say not even the people using today's transportation system should participate. They pay lip service to public discussion.

What do your children have to say about commuting? Are school buses a good deal? Is Thomas Jefferson High School a good deal?

dickboyd@aol.com

Posted By: dickboyd
Date Posted: 21 Jan 2005 at 3:28pm

Members of the Virginia Delegation as well as County Supervisors have been identified as people to contact with your ideas on commuting. HOT ideas in particular.

Those self same delegates and supervisors have staff working on transportation issues. To be effective, people lobbying for some specific transportation issue should use the existing political structure to come to consensus.

There is a Commonwealth Transportation Board that does the footwork for decision making at the State level. Unless CTB goes along, it ain't gonna happen. If the CTB says so, it is practically law.

The Assembly and Senate have transportation related committees. Unless those committees give a thumbs up, it ain't gonna happen. What those committees say is practically law.

Trying to organize general support for a specific issue without working with CTB and the committees is futile.

I say futile because the number of delegates that have slug constituents is a very small number. Not enough votes to swing a budget or policy decision.

However, delegates have assets that are of more use than their single vote. For one, they know the cross section of voters. They know what the hot button issues are and what the majority of their voters think on any issue. They also know the people that are active on addressing issues.

They all have real world jobs. Some even have influence through their real job that is of more interest to slugs than the single vote they represent.

For instance, Ken Plum and Jim Dillard are school teachers. They know who determines what is taught in school. If you spoke nicely to them, you might get an introduction to the group that develops what is taught in school. And if you are really nice as well as being qualified, you might be asked to serve as a citizen advisor.

Does home economics classes have a module that treats transportation costs? Automobile insurance? How are slugs treated in the discussion? Is there a discussion of alternatives to single car commuting?

Do civic classes deal with how local tax money is spent and how to make an objective (or even subjective) comparison of how well tax money is being used?

The slug message might be better delivered out of the mouths of babes rather than some political pulpit.

For instance, Dick Saslaw operates gas stations. When it comes to many votes, he recuses himself for conflict of interest. But Senator Saslaw was very influential in getting the Pentagon exit ramps open for car pools. Ask Senator Saslaw how much of the VRE or METRO money stays in the local area.

How many elected officials have you seen campaigning at a slug line? How many have campaigned at a METRO stop?

dickboyd@aol.com

Posted By: SpongeBob
Date Posted: 21 Jan 2005 at 5:10pm

Can't reply to all the things you've written, Dick, but...

1. The project isn't being driven by the potential for toll receipts, but by the laying of pavement. It's the pavers, not the future road owner(s), who are driving the process. There is absolutely no purpose to estimating numbers since the other side will simply come up with their own plausible data to support whatever they want. And really, no one cares.

2. The plan is to have the toll road lanes in use 24/7 with the necessary downtime to reverse the lanes. That goes for the Shirley Highway and I-95 corridor only, I think. The rest of the toll roads appear to be 24/7 no reversing alongside existing roads. It's the pavement, stupid, as Carville might say.

3. The issue isn't slugging, it is about maintaining the ability to get into the city and back in a reasonable amount of time. More People--Fewer Vehicles.

4. The issue of political clout here is moot. I've spouted about this at length elsewhere.

5. Your lead time argument is... immaterial at best, Dick. They're planning to lay pavement in 2006. This ain't the Hoover Dam they're talking about -- it won't take decades. It's simply more pavement to allow more homes to be built south of the city. Pretty simple, and pretty impossible to stop.

6. But talking about the next generation is one of the key points I made in my very first post to Slug-Lines:

Do we want to live in a country where the government abdicates its responsibility to provide basic services such as transportation infrastructure?

Will every government service eventually be done by a private company, and the "market" will set the cost? Is that fair to our poorer citizens? Is it the right thing to do?

7. Sponge's Deepest Wisdom: Look at our neighbor... Hmmm. Hey! How did Maryland eliminate the scourge of toll roads? How? Why, the Governor aligned himself with the People! No Lexus Lanes, he cried. And lo, the evil lanes died.

This is our strongest and only hope. Frail as it is.

Posted By: dickboyd
Date Posted: 23 Jan 2005 at 4:37pm

http://www.dailypress.com/news/local/virginia/dp-va--dullesrail0122jan22,0,4770534.story?coll=dp-headlines-virginia

Developer suggest widening roads rather than extending rail to Dulles

By the Associated Press

Published January 22, 2005

RESTON, Va. -- A Reston-based developer who has fought the multibillion-dollar plan to extend Metrorail to Dulles International Airport has offered his own proposal to ease northern Virginia's transportation woes.

Under his plan, Chris Walker said his company would widen Interstate 66 and the Dulles Toll Road between Washington and the airport--a congested 27-mile route....

dickboyd@aol.com

Posted By: Bob
Date Posted: 31 Jan 2005 at 9:28am

I just wanted to re-post the link to the message about signing up for "savehov.org" that was posted several weeks ago. (see the message above by SHIRONS) The website is

www.savehov.org

It is likely that many folks did not catch it the first time. One needs to go to the site and provide name and address info (go to the "member login" area) to become a "member" of the savehov organization. Do it and help save HOV!

Bob

Posted By: dickboyd
Date Posted: 03 Feb 2005 at 3:49am

http://www.metroopensdoors.com/

navigate to budget

http://www.picosearch.com/cgi-bin/ts.pl

Billion dollar budget for Washington METRO in 2006.

Does a resident of Fairfax County actually pay $78 per year in taxes for METRO operations? Do people from the rest of the United States actually pay that much for METRO?

Perhaps the people in flyover areas should reevaluate the wisdom of letting the country be governed by anyone NEAR the beltway. At least fiscally.

How do METRO costs compare to slugging?

METRO claims $0.72 operating subsidy per passenger. Possibly slugs should be paid $0.50 per ride? Maybe not in hard cash, but in better parking at both ends of the commute. But then slugs don't have capital costs.

dickboyd@aol.com

Posted By: ohio 7
Date Posted: 03 Feb 2005 at 8:35am

Just got a long letter from my county (Prince William) supervisor giving the agenda of his upcoming Town Hall Meeting on Monday, 7 Feb. at 7:00pm. One of the topics is the infamous HOT lanes. I strongly suggest that all those interested to show up to voice our opinions and concerns. It is being held at the Lake Ridge Baptist Church. I don't know where that is but the phone number to Corey Stewart's office is 792-4643 to inquire. Now is the time to show a presence.

Posted By: defender
Date Posted: 03 Feb 2005 at 11:35am

quote:
Originally posted by ohio 7
[br]Town Hall Meeting on Monday, 7 Feb. at 7:00pm. One of the topics is the infamous HOT lanes. . . . being held at the Lake Ridge Baptist Church. . .

See map at:
http://www.cabinbranch.org/directions.htm

Fuller Underwood II

Posted By: SpongeBob
Date Posted: 03 Feb 2005 at 11:42am

Which supervisor? Corey Stewart? I live in the jurisdiction, so to speak, of Maureen Caddigan. Are we allowed to come if we are from another district? I mean, it's still my county. I understand he's already an opponent of Toll Roads.

(Remember people, they are TOLL ROADS. There will be no High Occupancy aspect to them, so quit calling them HO-anything!)

Posted By: ohio 7
Date Posted: 03 Feb 2005 at 1:42pm

SpongeBob, it's a free country and county so bring yourself over and soak up any and all of the current info that you can. Yes, he's our new supervisor that replaced Ruth Griggs who is studying to become a lawyer and he is against HOT lanes and excessive development.

You'll have to sit through discussions of our pressing matters in this district but maybe we can get him to address this topic first so you and others, not in the district, can slip out the door when that topic is over.

Posted By: SpongeBob
Date Posted: 03 Feb 2005 at 4:15pm

I think I'll take a pass on this meeting because Corey is already one of the converted. Take me to the True Heathens that I may convince them of the evils of Toll Roads!

I look forward to meeting Corey at the next meeting the SAVEHOV citizen's group holds.

Posted By: dickboyd
Date Posted: 04 Feb 2005 at 2:49am

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A58803-2005Feb2.html

"Toll Road Drivers May Have to Dig Deeper"
_Washington Post_ - February 3, 2005

'Motorists on the Dulles Toll Road might have to pay as much as a
quarter more at each toll plaza under a proposed increase Virginia
transportation leaders are considering to help pay for a planned
Metrorail extension from Falls Church to Loudoun County.'

dickboyd@aol.com

Posted By: ohio 7
Date Posted: 04 Feb 2005 at 1:03pm

For those interested in the Town Hall meeting hosted by Supervisor Corey Stewart it is at the Lake Ridge Baptist Church located at 12450 Clipper Dr. on the corner of Mariner Dr. on the left, up a small hill. It is this Monday, 7 Feb. at 7:00 pm.

I spoke to one of his staff this morning and asked him to have Mr. Stewart raise the HOT lanes topic first, if possible, in case others want to leave after that topic. If you come, ask if that will happen to gage how long the wait will be. Other topics will be discussed that pertain to his district only.

Posted By: defender
Date Posted: 04 Feb 2005 at 3:19pm

Ohio7

Thanks.

Posted By: shirons
Date Posted: 05 Feb 2005 at 8:04pm

From Supv. Stewart's office here is the official agenda of his Feb. 7th Town Hall meeting:
TOWN HALL MEETING @ Lake Ridge Baptist Church on February 7, 2005 @ 7:00 p.m. Topics will include:
- Formation of Citizen Advisory Committees I am forming to help better serve our community;

- Placement of a 4-way stop-sign at Cavalier and Valleywood Drives;

- Options for curtailing cut-through traffic at Pennington Lane; and

- Widening Prince William Parkway

Although HOT Lanes are not on the agenda, I'm sure, as others have indicated, he'd be more than willing to discuss them.

I am working with his office to schedule a Town Hall Meeting in late Feb. that will focus solely on HOT Lanes.

Also, I'd like to invite all interested parties in attending a meeting of the Committee to Save HOV on Wed. Feb. 9th @ 7PM at the Ferlazzo Building in Woodbridge. The meeting will be in the Leesylvania Room.

http://www.savehov.org

Posted By: slclark2
Date Posted: 08 Feb 2005 at 9:24am

Bob: See my topic URGENT!! HOT Mtg. Today (Feb. 8, 2005).

Thanks!! Susan

Posted By: Bob
Date Posted: 09 Feb 2005 at 11:04am

I recently saw a reference in the Post to the Southern Environmental Law Center and a report they published that is critical of HOT lanes.
I am trying to contact the authors of this report that deals specifically with Virginia PPTAs.

Bob

http://www.southernenvironment.org

http://www.southernenvironment.org/Newsroom/2005/01-06_ppta_report.shtml

The actual report in PDF

http://www.southernenvironment.org/Cases/smart_growth_va/ppta_report_jan05.pdf

Posted By: SpongeBob
Date Posted: 09 Feb 2005 at 11:10am

And there was a paragraph in yesterday's Post article on toll roads in Texas that talked about the taxpayer losses incurred in VIRGINIA by public-private road bond issues. Anyone know what that was about? Sounds like a useful nugget for our economic argument against toll roads.

Posted By: JiggaJynx
Date Posted: 09 Feb 2005 at 11:37am

All sounds like food for thought for TONIGHT'S meeting. From Scott Hirons's e-mail:

...I'd like to invite all interested parties in attending a meeting of the Committee to Save HOV on Wed. Feb. 9th @ 7PM at the Ferlazzo Building in Woodbridge. The meeting will be in the Leesylvania Room.

http://www.savehov.org

Posted By: SpongeBob
Date Posted: 09 Feb 2005 at 1:32pm

Righto, JiggaJynx, see you there.

In the meantime, here's the mention in yesterday's Washington Post article:

"Private-public transportation contracts make some analysts wary. The Southern Environmental Law Center, which monitors transportation projects in six states, found that similar agreements in Virginia, for example, are costing taxpayers millions through the subsidies or tax-exempt bonds the state has provided to private road contractors.

'With tighter transportation dollars, there's an obvious appeal' to private-public projects, said Trip Pollard, the center's director of land and community projects. 'But people have to realize, it comes out of the public's pocket, whether it's taxes or tolls. . . . There's no free lunch with these projects.'"

There's a lesson there if we can ever get our heads around it....

Posted By: SpongeBob
Date Posted: 09 Feb 2005 at 1:53pm

And the lesson is, read carefully what others post. In this case, Bob had already taken several steps in the direction I was heading. My reference was to the thing he referenced.

Great minds, really. Or great Bobs, in this case.

Posted By: dickboyd
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2005 at 3:55am

Cross Post from General Slugging Comments.

From a discussion on GoogleGroup Miscellaneous Transportation Roads (MTR). Any comments from slugs? Are slugs welcomed? Ignored? Prosecuted? Recognized? People that post to MTR are more likely to contact their elected representatives and car dealers to get Clean Fuel vehicles exempted from HOV rules. Those same people might not have ever been to northern Virginia, or the east coast for that matter. Any slugs willing to share their experiences with MTR?

I think this poster missed the point that ALL the lanes should free flow, not just the reversible lanes. Yet the general theme is to FORCE capacity and ignore free flow.

Are slugs mute, deaf, or just don't care?
dickboy@aol.com

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/misc.transport.road/browse_frm/thread/5d24a63863998cd1/52b5e9c50bebe73c?_done=%2Fgroup%2Fmisc.transport.road%3F&_doneTitle=Back+to+topics&_doneTitle=Back&&d#52b5e9c50bebe73c

Who says cars have to be full? if the road operates at a decent level
of service with SOV's, then we don't need full cars. If that doesn't
work, then try HOV-2. Then HOV-3. HOV-3 has worked just fine for the
Shirley HOV roadway until recently, so maybe its time to re-evaluate
the restrictions.

> Slugs are prosecuted, not encouraged.

Prosecuted, on what grounds? There is nothing illegal about slugging,
so long as drivers don't charge for their services (at which point,
anti-jitney laws and business laws come into play). Its legal for me
to give a free ride to anyone I choose to, whether its a friend of mine
that i've known for 20 years, or someone I meet that morning at the
slug lines.

VDOT doesn't "encourage" slugging for liability reasons I assume, but
i'd say they take a much more neutral stance to it then anything else.
THey do post a link to the slugging websites on their webapge and they
certainly go out of their way to accomodate slugging with all the park
and ride lots.

dickboyd@aol.com

Posted By: cstewart
Date Posted: 08 Mar 2005 at 11:38am

I am hosting a Hot Lanes Town Hall Meeting on March 14th. I believe it will be very helpful and informative for all of us who slug into the city. There will be 2 presentations given on HOT Lanes as well as a question and answer session. I welcome all of you to attend. Please see the event calendar or call my office for more information (703) 792-4643. Supervisor Corey Stewart

Corey A. Stewart
Occoquan District Supervisor

Posted By: cstewart
Date Posted: 08 Mar 2005 at 11:38am