Why not HOV-4
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Topic: Why not HOV-4
Posted By: WBSlug7
Subject: Why not HOV-4
Date Posted: 29 Oct 2004 at 9:05am
A thought came to me last night as I was slugging home...Could HOV-4 be the answer to the congestion? I never understood why if cars are 4 seaters it's HOV-3 (or even worse, HOV-2). All this mess about the HOT lanes got me thinking, if they're planning on HOV-4 as an exemption from tolls, then why can't we do it now on our FREE HOV? If we start using HOV-4 and by the time the Hybrids are gone it would reduce traffic significantly. It only makes sense right? Your briefcases, suits, and child seats can sit in the trunk for an hour if it means getting there faster right? Am I crazy with this idea?
Forget Horner Rd, use Potomac Mills!
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Replies:
Posted By: salsita
Date Posted: 29 Oct 2004 at 9:08am
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I believe it would help, but as an owner of a child seat, I have mine attached through the LATCH system and it is EXTREMELY DIFFICULT to get out. Being that I use my child seat on a daily basis, it would be a pain for me to put in and remove my carseat. And with the stroller in the trunk, I doubt it would fit.
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Posted By: MDC
Date Posted: 29 Oct 2004 at 9:19am
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By the time 2006 comes around, there will be enough hybrid drivers/voters that it may not be politically possible to eliminate their exemption.
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Posted By: P8R10TZ
Date Posted: 29 Oct 2004 at 9:27am
Why not HOV-4?
One word.... PARKING...
There currently isn't enough for the possible extra cars that may need to park.
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Posted By: Stuck2
Date Posted: 29 Oct 2004 at 9:35am
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HOV 4 is harder than HOV 3. Would be best to eliminate ALL exemptions but stick with HOV3, but as mentioned in the other posts, the parking issue at Horner, etc. is becoming a crisis. Any reason the counties/state couldn't build multilevel parking garages and then the parkers could pay a $2-$5 per day fee? If they are slugging the rest of their commute is free. Also what about a more efficient, frequent train system?
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Posted By: mycroftt
Date Posted: 29 Oct 2004 at 9:46am
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HOV-4 is very tough for carpoolers. Most cars only carry 4 passengers confortably so your carpool is limited to 4 members. Anyone who has been in a carpool knows that it is very common to have one or more members out on any given day, so it is almost impossible to have a real carpool with HOV-4. Of course, they can pick up a slug to fill the car, but that sort of diminishes the value of having a set number of members who can just jump in and go.
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Posted By: WBSlug7
Date Posted: 29 Oct 2004 at 11:12am
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Wow, I didn't think it was that much of a deal to add one more person into your car. Thought it'd be better than trying to spend more tax money on "solutions" or having the HOT. Either way they're all temporary fixes, as the DC area grows we'll be facing the same problems in another 5-10 years. It'll be a matter of time before we're all living in tiny-apartment skyscrapers with shopping centers underground like in Toronto and Asia. The new houses in the suburbs are already close enough you can reach out your window and touch your neighbor. When will this insanity end!? [:P]
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Posted By: sluDgE
Date Posted: 29 Oct 2004 at 11:27am
Some history ... when I left DC for an overseas posting in 1989, I-95/I-395 was indeed HOV-4, and when I returned to DC in 1994 the HOV restriction had changed to HOV-3.
Anyone know for sure what caused the change during that 4 1/2-year period?
I heard the change was to make it easier for drivers to get enough riders and encourage the increased use of the HOV lanes - especially since HOV lanes were extended south to Dumphries. Evidently, slugging wasn't quite as popular and extensive then as it is now. I never had a problem with HOV-4 commuting from Springfield-Burke. Was it more difficult to get enough riders in PW, Stafford, and Spotsy' counties back then before the big growth in population and all the development in those counties? [?]
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Posted By: Stuck2
Date Posted: 29 Oct 2004 at 11:58am
I found that when drivers outnumber sluggers, it is hard to get that extra person. I also have a car seat in back. So, yes, a fourth person would be difficult to squeeze into the back. I particularly experienced problems in the summer time.
Solution is for people to move elsewhere -- like the moon. People will move where the jobs are and this is what is happening here. Counties will have to have a more conservative growth plan -- maybe toss in some incentives for jobs to move South. Nothing like living in a bedroom community.
Keep HOV 3, nix the exemptions, and ditch the HOT lane proposal. Also toss in DC, VA and MD constructively timing the traffic lights to help with traffic flow, and closing HOV at Edsall and Pentagon.
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Posted By: jek
Date Posted: 29 Oct 2004 at 12:40pm
WBSlug7 -
I, for one, like the idea of HOV-4 very much. Years ago, the HOV lanes required 4 people and there was a noticeable increase in cars on the HOV lanes when it went to HOV-3. (Sludge - I believe you are right - the slug lines back then had much fewer participants.) Considering that the HOV lanes get more and more congested each year, I think your idea is a great one. How many of us haven't complained about how our commute time on the HOV lanes keeps getting longer and longer?
I would rather remove the car seat than sit in this worsening traffic. The slugging system cannot possibly be tailored for everyone (including the sometimes drivers, such as someone missing a carpool member for the day). IT MUST ADDRESS THE MASSES. There definitely is the parking problem, but again, I would rather take temporary measures, such as leaving early (of course, that does leave the later arrivals with no parking spaces) than continue to see my commute time lengthen. Some folks I've talked to said they would be willing to take turns sharing rides with neighbors to the lots and they would require one parking space, and others have said that they have a family member that can drop them off...that type of thing. Although not everyone can do this, I would rather think of another alternative to the lots than spend more and more time for an already long commute (from Rt. 17). In the meantime, I suggest bombarding your representatives with demands for more or larger lots. I have done so, but numbers is what counts. From the people I've talked to, none have contacted their representatives. This is why the hybrid situation is being looked at again - hybrid owners are contacting their representatives in large numbers. We, apparently, are not.
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Posted By: jek
Date Posted: 29 Oct 2004 at 12:41pm
WBSlug7 -
I, for one, like the idea of HOV-4 very much. Years ago, the HOV lanes required 4 people and there was a noticeable increase in cars on the HOV lanes when it went to HOV-3. (Sludge - I believe you are right - the slug lines back then had much fewer participants.) Considering that the HOV lanes get more and more congested each year, I think your idea is a great one. How many of us haven't complained about how our commute time on the HOV lanes keeps getting longer and longer?
I would rather remove the car seat than sit in this worsening traffic. The slugging system cannot possibly be tailored for everyone (including the sometimes drivers, such as someone missing a carpool member for the day). IT MUST ADDRESS THE MASSES. There definitely is the parking problem, but again, I would rather take temporary measures, such as leaving early (of course, that does leave the later arrivals with no parking spaces) than continue to see my commute time lengthen. Some folks I've talked to said they would be willing to take turns sharing rides with neighbors to the lots and they would require one parking space, and others have said that they have a family member that can drop them off...that type of thing. Although not everyone can do this, I would rather think of another alternative to the lots than spend more and more time for an already long commute (from Rt. 17). In the meantime, I suggest bombarding your representatives with demands for more or larger lots. I have done so, but numbers is what counts. From the people I've talked to, none have contacted their representatives. This is why the hybrid situation is being looked at again - hybrid owners are contacting their representatives in large numbers. We, apparently, are not.
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Posted By: rale
Date Posted: 29 Oct 2004 at 12:53pm
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I have never been in a short slugging line. I typically wait 1/2 hour in the evening and the later sluggers tell me that they don't even bother to get in line after 5:30pm anymore at the Pentagon, because the line of riders is so long that they won't get picked up. They walk over and take the bus. This suggests to me that there are more riders than drivers, and I am all for HOV-4. If others are willing to add this to their arguments to delegates/representatives, I will do the same.
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Posted By: pplmvrs
Date Posted: 29 Oct 2004 at 12:53pm
parking is not a problem at Potomac Mills. I remeber when it was HOV-4 also :)
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Posted By: SpongeBob
Date Posted: 29 Oct 2004 at 1:14pm
One thing that stands out in almost every discussion on this site is our reliance on anecdotal evidence and personal experience to explain the ever-changing Slug Situation.
What we don't have is hard data.
How many people slug? From and to where? At what times? How many parkers ride the bus? How many hybrids (really)? When is the HOV "underutilized", if ever? What are the demographics of the sluggers, carpoolers, vanriders, and busriders? Anybody walk? Air pollution impact?
Seems to me that we can't protect what we can't define. We need data to prove the value of free multi-passenger commuting over toll-paying SOV's. (SOB's? Single-occupant Boors? Nah.)
Fluor's proposal is suspiciously silent on two significant numbers: how many people travel under the current system, and how many will travel under their toll system. How a company can forecast revenue without forecasting use... well, that's a new one on the Sponge.
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Posted By: fed up
Date Posted: 29 Oct 2004 at 3:45pm
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If memory serves me correctly, Congressman Stan Parris placed a rider to a bill to rename a building in Savannah, Georgia after Juliette Gordon Low, the founder of Girl Scouts. This rider changed the structure of HOV completely. It reduced the number of required riders from 4 to 3 and it also opened the HOV lanes to all traffic during non-rush hour, although lately that seems to be an oxymoron. Initally the Commonwealth of Virginia balked when Congress determined the evening HOV hours to be 3:30 to 6:00 and declared that HOV would be 3:30 to 6:30 (wouldn't that be nice). Well, Congressman Parris just didn't like that idea and told the Commonwealth that if they didn't shape up and play by his rules, Congress would withhold the federal monies earmarked for Virginia's roads. This all occured in the late 1980s and no changes have been made to the hours that HOV are opened in the evenings. I have always thought that 6:00 was too early especially for those work until 5:30. And now with all the congestion and traffic there is no way to get to the HOV lanes before 6:00 if you work until 5:30.
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Posted By: Wagonman
Date Posted: 30 Oct 2004 at 11:14pm
quote:
Originally posted by Stuck2
Keep HOV 3, nix the exemptions, and ditch the HOT lane proposal. Also toss in DC, VA and MD constructively timing the traffic lights to help with traffic flow, and closing HOV at Edsall and Pentagon.
Close the HOV at the Pentagon? Are you freakin' nuts? Closing Edsall to non-HOV would help, but not closing it to all traffic.
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Posted By: MDC
Date Posted: 01 Nov 2004 at 9:13am
quote:
Originally posted by Wagonman
Close the HOV at the Pentagon? Are you freakin' nuts? Closing Edsall to non-HOV would help, but not closing it to all traffic.
I took that to mean "close the 14th St bridge HOV lanes to non-HOV" even though Stuck2 did say Pentagon.
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Posted By: Stuck2
Date Posted: 01 Nov 2004 at 1:14pm
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Okay, it's were all the folks jump on right AFTER the PENTAGON -- you all know which one it is. All the old timers out there like to harken back the "good ol' days" before they opened up the bridge to everyone.
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Posted By: HOVer
Date Posted: 01 Nov 2004 at 2:26pm
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Sounds good in theory, but I too think I recall the reason for reducing HOV from 4 to 3 was to increase utilization of the lanes back in the day. I also think about your average Friday where, at least at the Old Hechinger's lot at Old Bridge and 123 it can be difficult just getting a couple of slugs, much less a 3rd. Then there are the drivers with the 2-door compact cars where there really isn't room for 2 average sized people in the back seat. I'm also one of those people with the carseat in the back that is god-awful difficult to put in and take out (I thought the LATCH system was supposed to be the answer to car seat installation hell, but apparently not, based on salsita's earlier posting). Before I had the car seat, I always "took a 3rd" which of course, people now have the option of doing. Not many are willing to though, esp in the AM, perhaps because they're thinking that's one additional stop they'll have to make in the obstacle course of downtown rush hour driving.
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Posted By: bernestih
Date Posted: 01 Nov 2004 at 3:35pm
Ref Hybrids. . .I was in the morning traffic as well. . .Gone are the days when you could get to the Pentagon in 20 minutes.
I believe the Hybrids are also selling like hotcakes, but, I think the buyers should consider. . .if they buy the hybrids the traffic is going to be conjested just like the regular lanes and you're not going to get to your meeting, day care, doctors appointment on time.
I also believe that when you have others in the car, you have a tendancy to drive more carefully, i.e., your family members. I know there have been a couple of townhall meetings which were mentioned in the Potomac News that the HOT lanes would allow single riders to ride by themselves for approx $4.80 each way, making that approx $200 a month.
Really, can't we all get along and share the riding. We all have the same goal in common. . .trying to make a living for ourselves and family members.
Is sharing a 20 minute ride so bad. . . .I remember 9/11. . .everyone was going out of their way to help one another. . .That lasted for about a month or two and we're back to road rage, etc. What happened?
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Posted By: Sheepish
Date Posted: 02 Nov 2004 at 5:14pm
quote:
Originally posted by Stuck2
[br]Keep HOV 3, nix the exemptions, and ditch the HOT lane proposal. Also toss in DC, VA and MD constructively timing the traffic lights to help with traffic flow, and closing HOV at Edsall and Pentagon.
Closing HOV at Edsall is not necessary! I have commented on this on another thread. There are many that carpool from Skyline or surrounding area, and having that entrance point is worthwhile so you don't always have to back-track to the Pentagon, or drive all the way down to Springfield.
Until the law allowing single drivers to currently enter from there and exit those first two Springfield exits changes, there will always be that extra traffic. Once the construction finishes, and the law changes, then you advertise the change and enforce HOV-3 compliance.
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Posted By: sluDgE
Date Posted: 03 Nov 2004 at 7:28am
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Just wondering .. has there been a study on how much of an increase in housing development and resulting increased HOV use would result from extending HOV lanes to Freddie-burg or Spotsy County or even further south? Extending the lanes might make HOV demand and congestion as bad or maybe worse than it is now. [?]
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Posted By: Tonka Truck
Date Posted: 04 Nov 2004 at 1:44pm
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Who remembers the bumper stickers (Restore HOV-4)?
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Posted By: USA
Date Posted: 10 Nov 2004 at 2:42pm
I-66 inside the Beltway was originally HOV-4 when it opened just before Christmas in 1982, but NOBODY used it during rush hour for the reasons some folks have noted here about it being too hard to maintain a four-person carpool (slugging never took off out that way and was nascent on I-95 as well back then). It was changed to HOV-3 fairly quickly, I think by early 1984 although I cannot recall when. (I remember the picture of the HOV-3 sign in the Post with a tagline saying "A Sign the Rules Are Easing.") The road was still underutilized and in March 1995 they changed it to HOV-2, which still works pretty well on I-66 in my experience (talking only the inside-the-Beltway part....the left HOV lane outside the Beltway isn't so good).
The history of HOV on Shirley Highway (I-95/395) is different. The idea for the express lanes first surfaced in 1964; they were completed from Springfield to downtown DC in 1971 (although the northern end took a bit longer to be opened fully because the Pentagon "Mixing Bowl" interchange was being rebuilt). At the time these lanes were solely for buses, but this was a waste of money, so in late 1973--at the time of the first Arab oil embargo--they allowed buses and 4-person carpools. (The term "HOV" first surfaced when I-66 opened inside the Beltway.) HOV-3 took effect in January 1989--several years after it began on I-66. I seem to recall that one of the arguments made at the time was that it was a success on I-66 and would likewise work well on I-95/395. The motorcycle exemption started in 1992.
I also seem to recall something along the lines of what user "fed up" states up above about Stan Parris's bill being the first time that the express lanes were open to all traffic at non-rush hour--previously it was always HOV-4. Does anyone else remember this?
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