County closer to HOT lanes
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Topic: County closer to HOT lanes
Posted By: Admin
Subject: County closer to HOT lanes
Date Posted: 15 Oct 2004 at 5:39am
County closer to HOT lanes
By LILLIAN KAFKA
lkafka@manassasjm.com
Wednesday, October 13, 2004
Elected officials in Prince William County are looking more closely at plans for pay-to-cruise interstate lanes and they have some commuter-friendly suggestions of their own.
High-Occupancy Toll lanes, or HOT lanes, should be seriously considered, said members of the Board of County Supervisors on Tuesday after they heard a presentation by Gary Groat, director of project development for Fluor Virginia.
Fluor Virginia, an Arlington-based transportation company, has submitted a public-private partnership bid to build 56 miles of HOT lanes from 14th Street in Washington, D.C., to the Massaponax interchange in Spotsylvania County.
"We really have to examine these proposals because there is no federal or state funding for it," said Supervisor Chairman Sean T. Connaughton, R-at large. "This may be our only hope for road and transit improvements in this corridor."
Fluor's $1 billion proposal would add a third lane to the reversible High-Occupancy Vehicle lanes that exist between the north- and south-bound lanes of Interstate 95.
Instead of requiring two passengers, the new lanes would require three or more passengers per vehicle to avoid a toll charge.
Groat said that in California, where HOT lane popularity is growing, more people are car-pooling to use the HOT lanes without having to pay.
Fluor's design also calls for an additional 24 exit and entrance ramps with some for buses only.
The design, Groat said, encourages bus transit systems.
The Bus Rapid Transit system that is being encouraged with the plan would access existing and undeserved transit areas.
Supervisor Maureen S. Caddigan, R-Dumfries, suggested that more park and ride lots be built in Prince William to take advantage of the HOT lanes.
"It looks like there is a light at the end of the tunnel," Caddigan said about the proposal.
VDOT doesn't have plans to extend the existing HOV lanes for years.
Groat said that if environmental impact studies are done within 18 months, construction could begin by 2006.
But the Commonwealth Transportation Board has to first decide if it wants HOT lanes, then who should build them.
Fluor Virginia has made one of two proposals submitted to the Virginia Department of Transportation.
Clark/SCC/KPRI made the other proposal and is scheduled to present it to Prince William officials later this year.
The Board will send a letter to the Commonwealth Transportation Board to encourage it to choose HOT lanes and make it speedy.
The Bus Rapid Transit could even be used on U.S. 1, Connaughton suggested.
Instead of calling HOT lanes "Lexus Lanes" as critics sometimes refer to them, Groat suggested a new name.
They're not ways for only the wealthy to bypass traffic jams on the general lanes, he said.
"They should call them "Lumina Lanes," he said, since studies have shown that in California people from all social and economic strata use the HOT lanes.
Single-passenger cars could pay up to $7 dollars or more to drive on them.
Tolls are calculated per mile and the average toll could be about 15 cents per mile, Groat said.
The tolls could change every six minutes and go up or down depending on congestion. If lanes are relatively clear, the charge is low. If they get congested, the rate increases, just like peak phone rates or electricity use times.
Highway managers would be able to keep an eye on the lanes by monitoring about 150 cameras watching the entire stretch of road from Spotsylvania to the District.
Only cars with Smart Tag or EZPass stickers could use the toll lanes because cash won't be accepted. High occupancy vehicles would also use a sticker to indicate that they shouldn't be charged.
Also in the works is a Fluor proposal for a $693 million expansion of the Beltway HOV lanes between the Springfield Interchange and the American Legion Bridge.
This story can be found at: http://www.potomacnews.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=WPN%2FMGArticle%2FWPN_BasicArticle&c=MGArticle&cid=1031778503231&path=!news&tacodalogin=no
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Replies:
Posted By: JiggaJynx
Date Posted: 15 Oct 2004 at 9:20am
quote:
Originally posted by Admin
[br]
Single-passenger cars could pay up to $7 dollars or more to drive on them.
*Only* $7 a trip--$14 a day? And the job likely includes parking as a perk? On days I can't slug and my commute involves bus and Metro, the cost approaches $13/day, AND I'm taking a car off the road. I advocate the "or more" part of the statement on proposed charges. They're still "Lexus Lanes" in my vocabulary.
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Posted By: ering
Date Posted: 15 Oct 2004 at 10:13am
I have no idea how this is going to work.
"High occupancy vehicles would also use a sticker to indicate that they shouldn't be charged."
And where would a commuter get such a sticker? What would the burden of proof be? What happens to ensure that once you get the sticker you don't suddenly stop carpooling?
This is INFURIATING.
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Posted By: ering
Date Posted: 15 Oct 2004 at 10:44am
Below is a copy of the letter I just sent to Maureen Caddigan. I am hopeful that others will do the same to stop HOT in its tracks.
Dear Mrs. Caddigan-
I am a resident of Dumfries, and a daily commuter from the Horner Road lot. I have been slugging for five years and find that this is the best, cheapest, and quickest alternative to the log-jammed roads in this area. While the HOV lanes have definitely slowed in the last couple of years due to mismanagement and short-sightedness on the part of you and your counterparts, the slow-down is nowhere near what is coming should the HOT lanes be implemented.
I am completely against the so-called Lexis Lanes for several reasons. NO ONE should have to pay for a road that they have already paid for through tax dollars. This amounts to nothing more than a double tax on the already over-burdened citizens of Northern Virginia. Further, I understand that the a third HOV lane would be constructed to handle the extra cars expected to flock in the already overcrowded "express" lanes. Unless there is a provision to widen the 14th Street Bridge, I am completely unclear as to how a third lane would benefit the flow of traffic. In fact, I see a merge from three lanes down to two as a nightmare from a congestion standpoint. Add to this the complete mechanization of toll collection and the fact that machines break, and you are adding time onto my commute. Let me stress that I am less than appreciative.
I understand that the state claims to be strapped for cash. I also understand that it's not you and your peers in county government who will suffer because of this. Rather, you will profit handsomely off the backs of commuters. You were quoted in the Potomac News as having said something to the effect of HOT lanes are the, "light at the end of the tunnel." Yes, Mrs. Caddigan, there is a light at the end of the tunnel. However, it's a freight train barreling down on those of us who are powerless to stop it.
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Posted By: gatewayslug
Date Posted: 15 Oct 2004 at 10:58am
Another thing I haven't seen anyone else comment on is the statement "Instead of requiring two passengers, the new lanes would require three or more passengers per vehicle to avoid a toll charge." I read that as HOV-4. Some cars just can't handle four people, especially if the driver is long legged and needs to put their seat back, and sometimes it is hard enough just getting that third person without a long wait. While this may be good for slugs at some lines by reducing the line without increasing the driver flow, it could make it harder on you when you need to drive. You have to have a sticker (so you have to plan ahead), squeeze more people into your car (and make it uncomfortable and/or unsafe if you have to adjust your seat), longer waits to fill your car; some drivers may actually find it more convenient and less time consuming to take their chances on the regular lanes.
I realize something is needs to be done to improve the traffic flow, and I don't want to stir the hybrid discussion into this thread, but I am always leary of plans that are pushed so hard by those who would benefit financially - the construction firm and the bus companies. That is one of the beauties of the slug system, it is cheaper for all involved and you aren't stuck with fitting into a fixed schedule.
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Posted By: SpongeBob
Date Posted: 15 Oct 2004 at 11:34am
A friend sent me a copy of Fluor's presentation to the PWC BOCS. It's all very plausible and calming on the surface. Lots of talk about buses and mass transit and shifting commuter patterns and repeated emphasis on how this is no cost and no maintenance to the local governments. Scary. Really, really scary.
The scariest part of it is that it IS going to happen. There is just no bloody way to stop it. The top VDOT official has already signed on, all the local governments are behind it, there is a billion dollars, literally, to be made just building the one measly extra lane on I-95, not to mention billions more for its management. With those kinds of dollars at stake and the politicians lined up in support, does anyone seriously think our feeble citizen protests will be heard? Of course not.
But let's not give up. Let's learn more about this dreaded thing and find all the chinks in its armor. Here's what I know/think: (please correct me if you have better or newer information,)
The HOT proposal is part of a REGIONAL traffic plan by Fluor Corporation (Clark Construction has a competing proposal.) Our I-95 slugging route is just a tiny piece of the big HOT plan. Overall, they are trying to build a network, a spider's web of HOT lanes running to Dulles, Tysons, Woodbridge, the Pentagon, Seven Corners, Old Town, Fairfax, Gainesville, etc. In other words, a for-profit toll lane system laid in alongside the existing road system. Your public thoroughfares will soon be an adjunct to a privately owned transportation network, one you will have to pay to use. Forever.
It's the BUSES that are the key to the plausibility of the HOT system. The politicians and planners hear the words "mass transit" and they just start nodding: Must be good! The problem for HOV is that the companies would prefer to limit the HOT to two types of customers: buses and tollpayers. Otherwise, the system gets overloaded. Carpools will be allowed to use the system, sure, of course they will. Heh heh. That is, until the very second the carpools begin to interfere with the toll-paying cars. Then: zap, no more freeloading non-payers on the HOT. This was made abundantly clear, some of you may recall, by the Fluor official quoted in the Wash. Post last spring. (Anyone got a copy of that article?)
Buses will be paying a toll, too, don't forget. The owner of the road isn't going to allow the pothole-causing behemoths to rumble down their private street without charging the bus company something. And guess who is going to have that little bit of something added to their fare?
Enough for now. To recap:
The issue here is at the core of our republic: are we a country where the government taxes the people to build infrastructure that can be used by everyone, or are we a country where private companies take over government's responsibilities and provide services only to those who can afford them, leaving the poor people in an inferior system?
What kind of country do you want to live in?
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Posted By: Bob
Date Posted: 15 Oct 2004 at 11:58am
I have also been wondering about the statement that the HOV cars would also have a Smart Tag to get on the system. I could not figure any way that this would prevent cheating, since these cars would (initially) be free. Then it dawned on me what they must be planning (Note that this is was NOT stated by them). I'll bet that each HOV Person would have to have a card on them. In other words, the HOV car goes through and the system detects 3 cards. Is that possibly what they are thinking?
Separately, the smart tage system requirement for HOV vehicles may in itself put an end to slugging, if there is a requirment of a "formal" carpool registered for each car. (Again, I have not read this, just thinking out loud). Bob
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Posted By: adjguy
Date Posted: 15 Oct 2004 at 12:14pm
Sponge, well said. Wow.
I never thought of it that way. Would building a light rail system coming down to at least the stafford county line help?
Other suggestions?
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Posted By: 13yearslugger
Date Posted: 15 Oct 2004 at 1:50pm
This is RIDICULOUS!!! Why do we fight to drive to D.C. to come back to PW or VA to pay our taxes to then have them propose this system, that's going to cost us MORE money, require us to probably double the time it takes us to get to work -- gosh!! I can go on and on.
And, the county is reaping the benefits of their home values rising and generating more revenue that way, too (even though they reduced the rate per 1,000, they're still taking in much more money) -- and, b/c more houses are being built b/c people want to come live here, b/c it takes only a little bit of time to get to work b/c we have such an AWESOME system!! And, why do they think that is....b/c people like Fluor Corp. or our county Sups. didn't invent it!!
I really think everyone needs to plan on going to the meeting on 10/19. This has to be nipped in the bud with a very loud voice from the slugging community!!
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Posted By: SpongeBob
Date Posted: 15 Oct 2004 at 2:49pm
Point to make in reply to Gatewayslug above: transportation planners refer to "3+ passengers" meaning that many occupants, including the driver.
HOV-4 could be the answer to the HOV congestion, except for three things:
1. We'd need more parking spaces... at least 25% more to keep the same number of vehicles driving on the lanes.
2. Our opponents (or idiots, as I like to say,) talk about the "underutilization" of the HOV lanes. They obviously haven't been on them southbound on Friday at 5:00 p.m., or northbound on Tuesday at 7:45 a.m. But that fiction is going to continue to be mouthed by the enemy throughout the upcoming HOT War. Fight it with the truth.
3. Vehicles, not passengers, create congestion. Therefore, it would be necessary to reduce congestion by increasing passengers and decreasing vehicles: either eliminate hybrids or require them to carry at least 2 people, if not three.
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Posted By: WBSlug7
Date Posted: 15 Oct 2004 at 2:59pm
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The next PWC Transportation Advisory Board Meeting is on Thursday, October 28 at 7:30 PM where citizens will be able to discuss HOT lanes and other traffic-related issues further with the board. It's a great opportunity for us to voice our concerns. Check out the TAB pages for more info http://www.pwcgov.org/default.aspx?topic=010087002020002696
Forget Horner Rd, use Potomac Mills!
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Posted By: WBSlug7
Date Posted: 15 Oct 2004 at 3:06pm
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In addition, the PWC Board of County Supervisors will hold their next meeting on Oct 19th. This is their 2004 agenda schedule http://www.pwcgov.org/docLibrary/PDF/001867.pdf
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Posted By: koakui
Date Posted: 15 Oct 2004 at 4:16pm
One of the things that they fail to point out is this: They are studying the California HOT system. Well, in California that system works very well. It is a separate highway system apart from the other highways. For Example, you can take the 5 northbound or jump on the ramp that takes you to the toll road. If you chose the toll road, you get on that ramp, you either pay your toll or you swipe your Fast Trak card. You are off on your way until it dumps you into the city or the various side points. The toll roads provide for the repairs to their road and sets the fare charges depending on time of day and congestion. It is completely apart from the normal highway system and is funded only by those who pay to drive on the HOT aka Toll Roads. It is not in any way connected to their HOV system (by the way is HOV-2) and does not share any of the public roadways that taxpayers pay for. If you are interested, see this link about the toll roads there. http://www.thetollroads.com/home/about_history.htm
I think this may be a valid argument we should bring up at the county meeting.
What do you guys think?
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Posted By: tdar20
Date Posted: 18 Oct 2004 at 8:22am
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Its all well and good to complain about the HOT solution, however if not HOT what then? I think it will be forever before VDOT funds an extension / expansion to the HOV lanes. If nothing is done, which is always an option for Virginia, the HOV lanes will be beyond capacity in a few short years. The merge down in Stafford get worse as time goes along. Used to be just Friday afternoon that it was bad but now.......almost every day. So, that being said, I dont have a solution either, except that its not cheap to commute to DC. Something will have to be done soon or the system will be non-functional in a short few years. The growth in Stafford alone could break the system.
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Posted By: SpongeBob
Date Posted: 18 Oct 2004 at 11:08am
TDAR20, Please go back up and read what I wrote two posts ago. The HOT lanes mean the elimination of HOV. It is essential to their operation that they be restricted to only those who pay, otherwise they become too crowded. Fluor has stated as much in public meetings and been quoted to this effect in the Post. HOT is dependent upon a corresponding decrease in HOV traffic.
If you think the backup heading south is bad, wait until HOT comes! And going north in the morning: imagine an extra lane of traffic merging down to the Pentagon and 14th St. exits. Ha!
Plus, the HOT proposal by Fluor contains almost two dozen more exit/entrances: what's the first rule of maintaining high traffic speeds and traffic flow? Limited access points. HOT breaks that rule. We're going to be stuck in backups forever.
So if you want a solution, here's one: buy an old Class C RV for $10,000 and commute in it -- at least you'll have a shower and toilet for the long day of sitting in line.
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Posted By: ScarletLSG
Date Posted: 18 Oct 2004 at 11:29am
This sounds RIDICULOUS. UNDERUTILIZED HOV lanes???? Let me tell you, I drive those lanes in ALL hours -- rush hour and otherwise. This morning, I left for work at 10:00 a.m. One might think that I had a smooth ride to Springfield from Quantico. NOPE ... took over an hour ... no accidents or incidents -- just too many people. HOT lanes are NOT the answer. BETTER and more train systems. I realize the profitability factor isn't there ... but my GOSH ... what I wouldn't do to be able to park my butt on a train to get to work. I don't know if the HOT lanes can be stopped, but you can BET, that I'm THANKFUL for the military and our expected transition AWAY from D.C. in 2006.
ScarletLSG
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Posted By: adjguy
Date Posted: 18 Oct 2004 at 12:08pm
Im sure that the Omnilink Bus system is licking their chops over this toll thing, and the elimination of hov, which would ultimatly destroy one of their major compeditors.....slugs.
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Posted By: tdar20
Date Posted: 18 Oct 2004 at 1:55pm
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SpongeBob.....first you cant prove the HOT lanes are going to cause more of a back up; it is only your opinion. My point is that if nothing is done at all then the HOV lanes will be way past capacity in a very short time. HOT lanes change the face of HOV but does not eliminate them all together. Something has to be done...last I heard fromthe State was a study that proved the capacity limit will be reached but there is nothing in the future budgets to lengthen the HOV lanes past the current merge near Quantico. And by the way, I for one would be willing to pay extra to use the HOT lanes as long as they extend them past F'burg. During the last 10 years I have tried every way I can think of to get to work and they either cost you time or money. The growth in Spotsy and Stafford alone will bust the system in the near future.
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Posted By: gatewayslug
Date Posted: 18 Oct 2004 at 3:10pm
Counterpoint, SpongeBob. I stick to my interpretation of HOV-4 because is said 3 passengers, not three occupants. Here is the sentence from the first post - "Instead of requiring two passengers, the new lanes would require three or more passengers per vehicle to avoid a toll charge." I95 HOV-3 currently requires two passengers (plus the driver) and the statement says it will go to three passengers. Now, granted they may be talking specifically about the new third land they want to add, but unless it is physically separated it will be as hard to control as I66 HOV-2 two is currently. Almost sounds like they want to make free slugging as difficult as possible so people will be forced to pay them to use the lanes.
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Posted By: tdar20
Date Posted: 19 Oct 2004 at 8:31am
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Good point gateway, I remember a long while ago when 95 was like 66 without the middle lanes. You would always have people running in and out of the lanes to try to get ahead of the traffic.
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Posted By: SpongeBob
Date Posted: 19 Oct 2004 at 9:54am
TDAR20 and Gateway: You need to read the proposals. They clearly and unequivocally state that carpools and HOVer's will need to be controlled to reserve space for paying customers. This isn't my opinion, it is the opinion of the companies that are trying to build the lanes. They said it publicly in the Washington Post. The HOT system is a misnomer: it is a Toll Road, and will not contain a provision for high occupancy once it is up and running. It can't.
Second, it is my opinion that HOT will clog the HOV lanes. It is my opinion, and the opinion of almost everyone else posting on this board or who has read anything about the matter. It is the obvious outcome of adding more cars to the HOV lanes. How can adding more vehicles NOT add to the congestion? You'll have everybody paying to get into those lanes -- at least until they become as clogged up as the rest of the grid.
Finally, it should be obvious that it doesn't matter how many lanes you have on I-395: the determining factor in the traffic flow equation is the carrying capacity of the outflow streets. Making it possible for more CARS to get to the border of DC is a waste of time: the goal should be to get more PEOPLE to the border of DC. And that means HOV-4. And that will require more parking lots and more buses. Not more SOV's.
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Posted By: tdar20
Date Posted: 19 Oct 2004 at 10:35am
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Ok Spongebob, your full of negatives here, I agree with some but not all. Whats your solution to the problem of HOV lanes 3 to 5 years from now if nothing is done? At least the HOT alternative is an alternative. Not a perfect one but one that extends the HOV past F'Burg. Never could deal well with people that only offer problems and never a way to fix them.
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Posted By: Bob
Date Posted: 19 Oct 2004 at 10:44am
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The other thing I would like to comment on is the argument that things are getting so bad that doing anything would be better than the current situation. To this I say, Wait a minute! Yes, traffic is horrible on the beltway and 95, but the HOV system on 95 is one of the only things in the region that works fine so DONT ruin the best thing we have going just because of problems on the regular lanes. The fundamental decision, relating to the HOT on the 95/395 corredor is whether we are going to give up on HOV and go over to toll. There are other options that could be explored including a regular toll lane system south of Woodbridge.
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Posted By: tdar20
Date Posted: 19 Oct 2004 at 2:20pm
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Bob I agree with you that it works well now but projecting 3 to 5 years in the future what will happen? As far as I can tell, VDOT has its head in the sand and not putting any resources beyond a study to solve the problem. Both ends, the getting into DC part over the bridges and the heading south part near Quantico. I for one would pay higher road taxes as long as I knew they were being used for extending the HOV lanes south. I know that it is going to cost either way. Nothing will be free here.
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Posted By: SpongeBob
Date Posted: 20 Oct 2004 at 10:21am
Precisely, TDAR, but you're missing the point here: there WON'T BE HOV. It will be a TOLL ROAD. A PRIVATELY OWNED toll road on PUBLIC land. (Don't mean to shout, but I can't figure out how to underline for emphasis. Pretend I'm speaking reasonably [8D].)
Please read the 1995 Public-Private Road Partnership agreement signed into law by the Virginia assembly. It basically abdicated the state's responsibility to provide transportation services, allowing anyone with enough money to solve the problem for the state and reap the benefits. That opened the door to Fluor and Clark.
I wouldn't mind higher taxes, either. Heck, I've posted elsewhere saying charge $5/day for parking at the HOV lots and do a Fastpass on the car for $1 per trip 24/7 on the HOV lanes with the current restrictions kept in place. In other words (and this is a solution, you'll notice, not a complaint,) keep the current system but add a revenue stream. I'd also be all for HOV-4 provided we can get more parking spaces. I also think there should be cops at every exit and entrance. I'd be happy even if they were specially deputized private forces managed by a contractor, as long as they stopped the cheaters. And I'd extend the HOV hours: 6-10 a.m. and 3-7 p.m.
Eyes on the goal here, my Sluggies: carry more people to the DC borders in fewer vehicles. Toll lanes (I refuse to subscribe to the HOT misnomer) do the reverse.
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Posted By: tdar20
Date Posted: 20 Oct 2004 at 12:41pm
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SpongeBob....I did not miss the point, just have a different view. One way or another you will be paying to ride. Maybe it will be more crowded with the HOT lanes maybe not. I have seen various results from the California experiment with them that supports both sides of the arguement. Just like politics.....I can give you any answer you want depending on who is paying me and what outcome you want. I for one support them for the single reason of extending the lanes past F'burg. The only way those lanes are going to be extended is through a private effort. If it is going to cost me to drive on them with other paying customers then so be it.
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Posted By: SpongeBob
Date Posted: 20 Oct 2004 at 2:17pm
Sorry, Tdar: physics will defeat you every time. 1. The CA results are a mixed bag, agreed, but nowhere do they replicate the situation here. In other words, that data is not indicative of what we can expect by eliminating HOV. For one thing, we have the world's best, yes, BEST HOV! And it is a unique situation we need to be careful to preserve.
2. Extending the lanes to Fredericksburg is a waste of time. Right now, the lanes are completely open Northbound until the Dale City exit. So there is no morning pressure to relieve. The problem, as you know, is in the evening, and that is completely the effect of having a poorly designed merge. It bugs me, too, because I live off 234 and get stuck in the pre-Stafford mess frequently. I don't know how to eliminate it short of extending the HOV hours to midnight on Friday or something like that.
But really, Tdar... do you want to pay to use a public highway FOREVER? Toll roads are a regressive tax element.
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Posted By: tdar20
Date Posted: 21 Oct 2004 at 7:29am
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Physics?? Now thats a real streach.......nothing in this world is free.
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Posted By: waterelf
Date Posted: 21 Oct 2004 at 8:39am
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Spongebob, I don't know what HOV you are in northbound each morning, but I travel each day from Fredericksburg and the backups start way before the Garrisonville (143) exit. My carpool has even talked about starting 15 minutes earlier just to make up the time difference.
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Posted By: SpongeBob
Date Posted: 21 Oct 2004 at 9:53am
I wasn't aware of that situation, Elf. All I can say is I get on I-95 everyday at Rte. 234 and can remember only a couple of times in the past ten years that there was a backup before the HOV entrance at the truck scales. (Of course, I'm talking about once the lanes were extended that far!)
So if there is a pocket of congestion around Fredericksburg, then that seems a different thing altogether from the daily backup which starts around the Purple Heart Bridge and extends down to Dale City. It is regular commuter congestion which HOV lanes are intended to alleviate, not isolated pockets of congestion, which yours is if it doesn't connect to the standing I-95 back-ups.
However, Tdar's point about the future is worth tackling: Stafford and F'burg (and PWC, too,) will only continue to grow. We will eventually need the HOV extended to F'burg. But remember, it took 15 years to get it across the Occoquan. Now we face a long empty stretch across the Marine Corps base. To say that we need to eliminate HOV for everyone on the I-95 corridor and replace it with a toll road just so a private company can provide service to Stafford and F'burg commuters, well, that doesn't seem fair to those of us who are using the HOV now. There's a budget squeeze in Richmond, true, but these things don't last forever; eventually there will be money again for building roads. It's no reason to scrap the world's best HOV lane, throw our hands up in the air, and turn over the future of Virginia's highways to a for-profit company. If you do it today, in your silly impatience, your children and grandchildren will be paying tolls on these roads. It's FOREVER, folks!
As for physics, I forgot to point out the obvious: the flowrate through a system is determined by its narrowest point. Make I-395 twenty lanes wide if you want-- it won't do any good. The Pentagon exit, Memorial Bridge, and the 14th St. Bridge ain't gonna get any wider. They cause backups already. Add more vehicles, as the toll roads will, without question, and the backups will get so bad the system will shut down.
I can offer that Prince William County has many houses for sale, and if you don't like any of them, why, we'll build you another while you wait. Hold on, just let me knock down these trees over here....
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Posted By: Bob
Date Posted: 21 Oct 2004 at 10:12am
Question. What is the legal aspect of converting a taxpayer-paid road such as 395 from public access to toll? Obviously a different situation from the beltway proposal to add new concrete. A driver told me today that it cannot be done legally.
Bob
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Posted By: SpongeBob
Date Posted: 22 Oct 2004 at 4:10pm
(I can't let this thread die... it's taking over my life....)
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the road does not become a private road; it is still a public thoroughfare. But how public is it when a private company does the following (word for word from the Fluor presentation, by the way,)
"Fluor proposes to: Plan-Design-Finance-Construct-Operate & Maintain The BRT/HOT Lanes System Project at NO COST to VDOT, who remains the Owner"
Well, if a company invests that much in a project, do you think they're going to walk away in a few years? Especially if they're making money? And if they're not making money, don't you think they will appeal to the state for a fare increase? After all, look at the huge investment they made. What legislature would tell Fluor or Clark to hand over the lanes? Or lower the prices? The price will NEVER go down. It will NEVER go away.
The HOV lanes you use now in the evening and on the weekend for free, will COST YOU. Whether VDOT owns the road or not.
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Posted By: Admin
Date Posted: 26 Oct 2004 at 8:56pm
Here is the Fluor proposal that was briefed to the PWC Board of Supervisors:
Large pdf file: http://www.slug-lines.com/hot/fluor_hot_document.pdf
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Posted By: Bob
Date Posted: 10 Nov 2004 at 3:42pm
On another thread, someone was talking about how the maintenance on the HOV is so bad, then why not do HOT? Actually, as I was stuck on the HOV lane the other morning, I wonder if VDOT is letting the condition of the HOV deteriorate on purpose so everything will get so horrible that the only alternative is HOT! I guess I am just too cynical and paranoid. But seriously, VDOT really doesn't care about our current HOV backups. Has anyone heard or read a single word about the HOV situation? Any discussions of HOV 4 or any other recommendations are just from slugs. The authorities act like they are completely helpless.
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Posted By: dickboyd
Date Posted: 09 Jan 2005 at 8:53pm
If you have enough money to build light rail to Stafford, a better investment would be to build office buildings in Stafford and have the people that live in Stafford, work in Stafford. One answer might be to give Stafford County a DC Post Office and ZIP code identification.
quote:
Originally posted by adjguy
[br]Sponge, well said. Wow.
I never thought of it that way. Would building a light rail system coming down to at least the stafford county line help?
Other suggestions?
dickboyd@aol.com
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Posted By: dickboyd
Date Posted: 09 Jan 2005 at 9:06pm
Be careful of what you ask for, you just might get it. Capacity means full. It won't hold anymore. When is a glass of water full? When one more drop causes it to overflow? Or when there is enough slosh room for the waitress to balance the glass on a tray and carry it to the table without spilling.
To a traffic engineer capacity means adding one more car changes the road to a parking lot. Speed at capactity is about 70% of free flow speed. Breakdown happens one day in twenty. Clearing time after breakdown can be one hour or two days.
quote:
Originally posted by tdar20
[br]SpongeBob.....first you cant prove the HOT lanes are going to cause more of a back up; it is only your opinion. My point is that if nothing is done at all then the HOV lanes will be way past capacity in a very short time. HOT lanes change the face of HOV but does not eliminate them all together. Something has to be done...last I heard fromthe State was a study that proved the capacity limit will be reached but there is nothing in the future budgets to lengthen the HOV lanes past the current merge near Quantico. And by the way, I for one would be willing to pay extra to use the HOT lanes as long as they extend them past F'burg. During the last 10 years I have tried every way I can think of to get to work and they either cost you time or money. The growth in Spotsy and Stafford alone will bust the system in the near future.
dickboyd@aol.com
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Posted By: dickboyd
Date Posted: 09 Jan 2005 at 9:17pm
Close the Pentagon. Move the military to Yuba County, California.
Close FHWA's Turner-Fairbanks research station. Move Federal Highway research from state to state on a rotating basis. First state to get the honor is the one with the highest crash mortality per capita. Hihgway research stays there until crash mortality drops.
Run the Federal government like they run the Olympics. Most State governments are part time anyway. Move the meeting place for Congress from one state capitol to another. Alaska would be the first state to host the new federal government. After that there would be a lottery. Losing state gets to host the feds.
The Supreme Court, Congress and the head of the executive department could not be in the same state at any one time.
Allow Congressmen and Senators to be in only three places. Their home district, the appointed capitol, or travelling between those two places. Maximum travel time 48 hours. Elected members of the Executive department could only be at the appointed capitol, state funerals, or international conferences.
quote:
Originally posted by tdar20
[br]Its all well and good to complain about the HOT solution, however if not HOT what then? I think it will be forever before VDOT funds an extension / expansion to the HOV lanes. If nothing is done, which is always an option for Virginia, the HOV lanes will be beyond capacity in a few short years. The merge down in Stafford get worse as time goes along. Used to be just Friday afternoon that it was bad but now.......almost every day. So, that being said, I dont have a solution either, except that its not cheap to commute to DC. Something will have to be done soon or the system will be non-functional in a short few years. The growth in Stafford alone could break the system.
dickboyd@aol.com
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Posted By: dickboyd
Date Posted: 09 Jan 2005 at 9:23pm
Yep, it can't be done legally. So change the law. Just find another Juliette Lowe bill and add a rider to allow conversion of public roads to the private sector.
Isn't anyone interested in knowing who Kenny Klinge is?
quote:
Originally posted by Bob
[br]Question. What is the legal aspect of converting a taxpayer-paid road such as 395 from public access to toll? Obviously a different situation from the beltway proposal to add new concrete. A driver told me today that it cannot be done legally.
Bob
dickboyd@aol.com
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Posted By: wmcg698220
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2005 at 9:19am
quote:
Originally posted by Admin
[br]County closer to HOT lanes
By LILLIAN KAFKA
lkafka@manassasjm.com
Wednesday, October 13, 2004
Elected officials in Prince William County are looking more closely at plans for pay-to-cruise interstate lanes and they have some commuter-friendly suggestions of their own.
High-Occupancy Toll lanes, or HOT lanes, should be seriously considered, said members of the Board of County Supervisors on Tuesday after they heard a presentation by Gary Groat, director of project development for Fluor Virginia.
Fluor Virginia, an Arlington-based transportation company, has submitted a public-private partnership bid to build 56 miles of HOT lanes from 14th Street in Washington, D.C., to the Massaponax interchange in Spotsylvania County.
"We really have to examine these proposals because there is no federal or state funding for it," said Supervisor Chairman Sean T. Connaughton, R-at large. "This may be our only hope for road and transit improvements in this corridor."
Fluor's $1 billion proposal would add a third lane to the reversible High-Occupancy Vehicle lanes that exist between the north- and south-bound lanes of Interstate 95.
Instead of requiring two passengers, the new lanes would require three or more passengers per vehicle to avoid a toll charge.
Groat said that in California, where HOT lane popularity is growing, more people are car-pooling to use the HOT lanes without having to pay.
Fluor's design also calls for an additional 24 exit and entrance ramps with some for buses only.
The design, Groat said, encourages bus transit systems.
The Bus Rapid Transit system that is being encouraged with the plan would access existing and undeserved transit areas.
Supervisor Maureen S. Caddigan, R-Dumfries, suggested that more park and ride lots be built in Prince William to take advantage of the HOT lanes.
"It looks like there is a light at the end of the tunnel," Caddigan said about the proposal.
VDOT doesn't have plans to extend the existing HOV lanes for years.
Groat said that if environmental impact studies are done within 18 months, construction could begin by 2006.
But the Commonwealth Transportation Board has to first decide if it wants HOT lanes, then who should build them.
Fluor Virginia has made one of two proposals submitted to the Virginia Department of Transportation.
Clark/SCC/KPRI made the other proposal and is scheduled to present it to Prince William officials later this year.
The Board will send a letter to the Commonwealth Transportation Board to encourage it to choose HOT lanes and make it speedy.
The Bus Rapid Transit could even be used on U.S. 1, Connaughton suggested.
Instead of calling HOT lanes "Lexus Lanes" as critics sometimes refer to them, Groat suggested a new name.
They're not ways for only the wealthy to bypass traffic jams on the general lanes, he said.
"They should call them "Lumina Lanes," he said, since studies have shown that in California people from all social and economic strata use the HOT lanes.
Single-passenger cars could pay up to $7 dollars or more to drive on them.
Tolls are calculated per mile and the average toll could be about 15 cents per mile, Groat said.
The tolls could change every six minutes and go up or down depending on congestion. If lanes are relatively clear, the charge is low. If they get congested, the rate increases, just like peak phone rates or electricity use times.
Highway managers would be able to keep an eye on the lanes by monitoring about 150 cameras watching the entire stretch of road from Spotsylvania to the District.
Only cars with Smart Tag or EZPass stickers could use the toll lanes because cash won't be accepted. High occupancy vehicles would also use a sticker to indicate that they shouldn't be charged.
Also in the works is a Fluor proposal for a $693 million expansion of the Beltway HOV lanes between the Springfield Interchange and the American Legion Bridge.
This story can be found at: http://www.potomacnews.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=WPN%2FMGArticle%2FWPN_BasicArticle&c=MGArticle&cid=1031778503231&path=!news&tacodalogin=no
If HOT lanes were to become a reality...how long till they were operational? Months? Years?
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Posted By: SpongeBob
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2005 at 2:27pm
Dear wmcg698220:
We are talking about toll booths being added to the lovely Shirley Highay corridor beginning in about 13 months.
Goodbye Slugs! Nice to know you! See you in the traffic jam!
Sponge B.
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Posted By: Bob
Date Posted: 26 Jan 2005 at 12:13pm
I got the article below from the online Journal newspaper. Not really much new but I do have some comments. This "Commonwealth Transportation Board" doesn't appear to be accountable to anyone. I believe all of their meetings are held in Richmond, and the whole thing seems very secretive to me. Perhaps I am just paranoid. These issues are huge and they are almost being decided in secret. To me, this appears to be a situation where some well placed money by the HOT developers could work wonders. Do other states work this way?
(PS I just wrote an email to the VDOT spokesperson that was mentioned asking for info about contacting the head of this Board)
(PS I also just found a section of the VDOT website with some info on recent actions by the board)
http://www.virginiadot.org/infoservice/ctb-default.asp
HOT-lane proposals
move forward
The Commonwealth
Transportation Board voted Thursday
to move two high-occupancy toll
proposals to the next stage of
review.
The proposals, submitted by the
Clark Construction Group and Fluor
Virginia Inc., are designed to
alleviate traffic congestion along 36
miles of Interstate 95 between
Fredericksburg and Washington.
Both proposals would replace
high-occupancy vehicle lanes with
high-occupancy toll lanes, in which
single drivers would pay a variable
toll to use.
An advisory board will review
the proposals and also will allow for
comments from the public, said
Tamara Neale, a Virginia Department
of Transportation spokeswoman. The
review process is scheduled to
continue until fall, followed by
advisory panel recommendations to
the VDOT commissioner.
Negotiations with one or both of the
contractors would not begin until
early 2006, Neale said.
“A lot of things have to happen
before that project becomes a
reality,” she said.“We’re not digging
tomorrow.”
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Posted By: beachhead
Date Posted: 26 Jan 2005 at 12:36pm
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"Commonwealth Transportation Board" sounds like "Virginia Basebal Stadium Commission." At least the baseball guys held some public meetings and found out what they were up against before they tried to ram that gem past No. Va. residents. Fortunately, DC figured out they were going to loose baseball to VA if they didn't get their act together, making what could have been another ugly situation moot.
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Posted By: defender
Date Posted: 31 Jan 2005 at 9:01am
Thanks to various writers, there have been several articles on the breakdown of the HOV lanes in Northern Virginia. Most noted what thousands of car-pooling Northern Virginia commuters already know; if you want to legally cheat HOV-3, buy a so-called hybrid. If you want to defeat HOV, you may also buy a hybrid.
The legislators may have intended well by allowing hundreds small, “clean fuel” cars onto the HOV-3. However, the hundreds have multiplied to be thousands and now include full-sized LPG fueled trucks, CNG fueled Crown Victorias, and conventionally fueled, Ford Excape SUVs. Almost to a vehicle, these run through a legal loophole and onto the HOV-3 with “room for five, while ridden by one.”
This week, we are at a critical point. Our Legislators, particularly those who chair or sit on transportation sub-committees, need to understand how bad the daily commute has become, and why HOV is critically ill. The sickness is rooted in one cause. However, we have a simple and effective cure.
The Virginia Legislators needs to excise the cancer from the HOV. They need to END ALL EXCEPTIONS THAT ALLOW SOLO DRIVERS IN THESE LANES. Overnight, we will gain a potential to move 4,000 additional commuters without putting another car on the road. Ending the exceptions will decrease overall pollution by putting multiple commuters in the existing clean fuel vehicles. It will relieve HOV congestion. Best yet, it will do this at no additional cost to the taxpayer.
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