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HOV Enforcement

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Mit View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jun 2002 at 9:15am
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On the other hand, though, FBI folks going to/from Quantico, and perhaps some others, are reasonable exceptions.

Eric.




What makes them so special? How about an exception for, say, Postal workers on their way to L'Enfant Plaza, or Wal-Mart greeters during December? What they do is important too, right? No, I'm not buying it - it's elitism and flaunting the law. I don't care if J. Edgar is on his way to get his gown re-hemmed, the law should apply to him as well. Emergency vehicles on a call should be the only exceptions.



I'm with Mycroftt--Emergency vehicles only.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eric Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jun 2002 at 11:52pm
MYCROFTT wrote:
quote:

quote:


On the other hand, though, FBI folks going to/from Quantico, and perhaps some others, are reasonable exceptions.

Eric.




What makes them so special? How about an exception for, say, Postal workers on their way to L'Enfant Plaza, or Wal-Mart greeters during December? What they do is important too, right? No, I'm not buying it - it's elitism and flaunting the law. I don't care if J. Edgar is on his way to get his gown re-hemmed, the law should apply to him as well. Emergency vehicles on a call should be the only exceptions.



Because agents going between HQ and Quantico are presumably doing so while on duty. I have absolutely no problem cutting ON DUTY law enforcement some slack. The number of exemptions shouldn't end up being that large. Suppose VDOT issues a very limited number of 'passes' to law enforcement agencies located w/in (say) 30 miles of DC. In order to have a pass the officer must ALREADY BE AT WORK to pick it up. And they must return it to work. That way, if Agent Smith from the FBI labs in Quantico is needed to testify in a Federal trial in Alexandria, some low-life doesn't get off on a technicality because Agent Smith was stuck in traffic.

Now, I wholeheartedly agree that there needs to be an stop to HOV usage by the Congress-critter, the DC cop living in Dale City and who can't be bothered to pick up slugs, and the Henrico County deputy that's cruising thru. BUT, for example, I think those troopers that are volunteering their time to sit along 110 and help guard the Pentagon really deserve whatever slack they can be given.

- Eric.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mycroftt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jun 2002 at 8:24am
I still don't think the privileged class should get a free pass for HOV. If Mr. FBI Scientist needs to testify in Arlington, he can darn well get his butt out of bed early enough to get to court before the trial is over -just like I would have to do if I were testifying or on a jury or on trial for being a subversive SOB. A revolution was fought to rid this country of royalty and privileged classes and I don't think we should start building them anew. I say what's good for the goose is good for the gander. HOV lanes for HOV only!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jun 2002 at 9:42am
Ditto mycroftt's statement.

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Bob View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jun 2002 at 11:07am
The issue of HOV enforcement is linked to allowing a huge number of non-HOV vehicles in the lanes. In the past, the troopers could sit on the side of the road and check cars as they went past. Now, however, enforcement has to be done at the entrance/exits because of all of the non HOV "legals."

Move forward in time several years when 50% of the HOV traffic is single occupant cars. How on earth will anyone enforce this? To even enforce at the exits would cause a massive backup.

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Eric View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eric Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jun 2002 at 10:57pm
quote:

I still don't think the privileged class should get a free pass for HOV. If Mr. FBI Scientist needs to testify in Arlington, he can darn well get his butt out of bed early enough to get to court before the trial is over -just like I would have to do if I were testifying or on a jury or on trial for being a subversive SOB. A revolution was fought to rid this country of royalty and privileged classes and I don't think we should start building them anew. I say what's good for the goose is good for the gander. HOV lanes for HOV only!



A handful of non-emergency ON-DUTY law enforcement hardly constitutes a 'class'. Besides, if you want to talk 'privileged class', there already IS one and you're part of it. That's the class of folks who work in a privileged location that allows them to take advantage of HOV and who don't have two-seater cars!! Now, nobody on this board seems to have any problem with reaping the benefits being in this class, but let's be honest and recognize that we all enjoy a privilege that many in our area can't enjoy. Now, society as a whole derives a benefit from granting this boon to those who are privileged to be able to use it and the point of this topic is that the societal benefit is diluted by having many loopholes in the HOV law. And on this I think we're all in agreement.

However, society ALSO derives a benefit from making it easier for on duty law enforcement personnel to do their jobs. That's why I make the distinction of ON-DUTY. If we can get rid of all the other loopholes, this one will be a tiny concession.

But, anyway, peace... The most important thing is to look into making a sensible definition of what constitutes a clean-air vehicle. These are the things that really threaten to clog the HOV with single occupant vehicles. And the starting definition I suggest is that, unless a car has at least 3x the mileage and 1/3 the emissions of the average passenger car, it should not qualify for HOV exemption ever. And if you account for the added emissions and gas wastage (and economic wastage) that will come about when HOV gets clogged with these cars, the real criteria ought to be more like 4x and 1/4.

- Eric.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mycroftt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jun 2002 at 7:29am
Eric, your argument is a classic example of what we used to call a "cop out" - you evaded the issue and claimed that others are the true privileged class. Tsk, tsk. I guess you concede that there is no justification for the coppers to be above the law.

I have an even better solution to reducing the number of people on the highways. I do about 90% of my work on a computer or a telephone so it doesn't really matter where I sit. I could work at home or in the telework center close to home. Unfortunately, my employer has a decidely 1940's view of work responsibility in that where you are sitting is more important than what you are doing. Damn shame really. I think a large portion of the commuting workforce is in the same boat. Most of this travelling up and down the crowded road is completely unnecessary.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eric Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jun 2002 at 9:59pm
quote:

Eric, your argument is a classic example of what we used to call a "cop out" - you evaded the issue and claimed that others are the true privileged class. Tsk, tsk. I guess you concede that there is no justification for the coppers to be above the law.



Nah. No cop-out and no evasion of the issue. I've repeatedly made a valid point. (Namely, that society derives sufficient benefit from permitting ON DUTY law enforcement to use HOV that it warrants the exception.) You (and others) obviously disagree with that point. But somehow, because I've not surrendered to your viewpoint, I'm evading the issue?? Further, you mischaracterize the situation by saying that the police are putting themselves above the law, attempting to twist the situation into some sort of class warfare. In order to point out the absurdity of your "above the law" and "privileged class" assertions, I pointed out that those of us who use HOV are, in the same sense and according to your definition, a privileged class. This is not a cop-out; it is directly and logically connected. You were certainly welcome to come up with a counterargument if possible, but instead you made a statement (quoted above) that is intellectually not far from sticking your fingers in your ears and saying loudly "La la la!! I can't hear you!"

BTW, those who utilize the present loopholes are NOT acting 'above the law'. The loopholes are in the law itself. And, I'd be willing to bet (given the number of DC tags I see involved in single occupant traffic on HOV), this law was forced on VDOT by some Congress-critter using the big stick of Federal highway dollars. But, regardless, there's no call to insult law enforcement officers by asserting that they're trying to lord it over us somehow. You don't like the law, go through the usual process and get it changed.

- Eric.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mycroftt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jun 2002 at 1:05pm
Sorry Eric, but you seem to enjoy an elevated opinion of your argument that is unshared by others. Your claim to have "repeatedly made a valid point. (Namely, that society derives sufficient benefit from permitting ON DUTY law enforcement to use HOV that it warrants the exception.)" mischaracterizes what you have accomplished, which is no more than to have repeatedly uttered the unfounded assertion that there is sufficient benefit derived from the exception to justify its continued existence. A valid opinion no doubt, and one I would not care to argue against, but hardly a valid point since you have not offered any evidence to support it.

I am amused by your misreading of my chide about your childish game of "It takes one to know one" when you made the ridiculous claim that the commuter who plays by the rules, is somehow "privileged" when using the taxpayer-capitalized infrastructure provided for that very reason. Alas, there is no topic line for me to have indicated that I was deliberately going off topic, so allow me to set the record straight: I was off topic and not addressing Eric's argument when I chided him.

In any case, my real beef is with the off-duty commuting lawmen who roar solo past me as I slug my way to work. I don't think they should be allowed to do so. A rereading of the posts reveals that I never accused them of lording it over anyone, as you claim, so I await your retraction of that false accusation. My belief is that they are just guys taking advantage of having been granted special privileges based on their class who are just going to workand I think it should be stopped.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote waterelf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jun 2002 at 2:19pm
Obviously you do not know anyone who works in federal law enforcement, as is evidenced by your comment regarding those "off duty." When you see someone driving in a law enforcement vehicle, they are "on duty" and on their way to/from work. I do not agree that they should not be allowed to drive on the HOV, as they do not have the opportunity to pick up slugs and are required to drive that government vehicle.

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