County closer to HOT lanes

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   Question. What is the legal aspect of converting a taxpayer-paid road such as 395 from public access to toll?  Obviously a different situation from the beltway proposal to add new concrete. A driver told me today that it cannot be done legally.

	Bob

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Bob Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 14 Dec 2001 Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote Bob Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 21 Oct 2004 at 10:12am
	Question. What is the legal aspect of converting a taxpayer-paid road such as 395 from public access to toll? Obviously a different situation from the beltway proposal to add new concrete. A driver told me today that it cannot be done legally. Bob

SpongeBob Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 06 Oct 2004 Location: VA Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote SpongeBob Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 22 Oct 2004 at 4:10pm
	(I can't let this thread die... it's taking over my life....) Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the road does not become a private road; it is still a public thoroughfare. But how public is it when a private company does the following (word for word from the Fluor presentation, by the way,) "Fluor proposes to: Plan-Design-Finance-Construct-Operate & Maintain The BRT/HOT Lanes System Project at NO COST to VDOT, who remains the Owner" Well, if a company invests that much in a project, do you think they're going to walk away in a few years? Especially if they're making money? And if they're not making money, don't you think they will appeal to the state for a fare increase? After all, look at the huge investment they made. What legislature would tell Fluor or Clark to hand over the lanes? Or lower the prices? The price will NEVER go down. It will NEVER go away. The HOV lanes you use now in the evening and on the weekend for free, will COST YOU. Whether VDOT owns the road or not.

Admin Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 25 Jul 2001 Location: VA Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote Admin Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 26 Oct 2004 at 8:56pm
	Here is the Fluor proposal that was briefed to the PWC Board of Supervisors: Large pdf file: http://www.slug-lines.com/hot/fluor_hot_document.pdf

Bob Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 14 Dec 2001 Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote Bob Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 10 Nov 2004 at 3:42pm
	On another thread, someone was talking about how the maintenance on the HOV is so bad, then why not do HOT? Actually, as I was stuck on the HOV lane the other morning, I wonder if VDOT is letting the condition of the HOV deteriorate on purpose so everything will get so horrible that the only alternative is HOT! I guess I am just too cynical and paranoid. But seriously, VDOT really doesn't care about our current HOV backups. Has anyone heard or read a single word about the HOV situation? Any discussions of HOV 4 or any other recommendations are just from slugs. The authorities act like they are completely helpless.

dickboyd Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 13 Nov 2004 Location: California Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote dickboyd Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 09 Jan 2005 at 8:53pm
	If you have enough money to build light rail to Stafford, a better investment would be to build office buildings in Stafford and have the people that live in Stafford, work in Stafford. One answer might be to give Stafford County a DC Post Office and ZIP code identification. quote: Originally posted by adjguy [br]Sponge, well said. Wow. I never thought of it that way. Would building a light rail system coming down to at least the stafford county line help? Other suggestions? dickboyd@aol.com

dickboyd Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 13 Nov 2004 Location: California Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote dickboyd Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 09 Jan 2005 at 9:06pm
	Be careful of what you ask for, you just might get it. Capacity means full. It won't hold anymore. When is a glass of water full? When one more drop causes it to overflow? Or when there is enough slosh room for the waitress to balance the glass on a tray and carry it to the table without spilling. To a traffic engineer capacity means adding one more car changes the road to a parking lot. Speed at capactity is about 70% of free flow speed. Breakdown happens one day in twenty. Clearing time after breakdown can be one hour or two days. quote: Originally posted by tdar20 [br]SpongeBob.....first you cant prove the HOT lanes are going to cause more of a back up; it is only your opinion. My point is that if nothing is done at all then the HOV lanes will be way past capacity in a very short time. HOT lanes change the face of HOV but does not eliminate them all together. Something has to be done...last I heard fromthe State was a study that proved the capacity limit will be reached but there is nothing in the future budgets to lengthen the HOV lanes past the current merge near Quantico. And by the way, I for one would be willing to pay extra to use the HOT lanes as long as they extend them past F'burg. During the last 10 years I have tried every way I can think of to get to work and they either cost you time or money. The growth in Spotsy and Stafford alone will bust the system in the near future. dickboyd@aol.com

dickboyd Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 13 Nov 2004 Location: California Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote dickboyd Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 09 Jan 2005 at 9:17pm
	Close the Pentagon. Move the military to Yuba County, California. Close FHWA's Turner-Fairbanks research station. Move Federal Highway research from state to state on a rotating basis. First state to get the honor is the one with the highest crash mortality per capita. Hihgway research stays there until crash mortality drops. Run the Federal government like they run the Olympics. Most State governments are part time anyway. Move the meeting place for Congress from one state capitol to another. Alaska would be the first state to host the new federal government. After that there would be a lottery. Losing state gets to host the feds. The Supreme Court, Congress and the head of the executive department could not be in the same state at any one time. Allow Congressmen and Senators to be in only three places. Their home district, the appointed capitol, or travelling between those two places. Maximum travel time 48 hours. Elected members of the Executive department could only be at the appointed capitol, state funerals, or international conferences. quote: Originally posted by tdar20 [br]Its all well and good to complain about the HOT solution, however if not HOT what then? I think it will be forever before VDOT funds an extension / expansion to the HOV lanes. If nothing is done, which is always an option for Virginia, the HOV lanes will be beyond capacity in a few short years. The merge down in Stafford get worse as time goes along. Used to be just Friday afternoon that it was bad but now.......almost every day. So, that being said, I dont have a solution either, except that its not cheap to commute to DC. Something will have to be done soon or the system will be non-functional in a short few years. The growth in Stafford alone could break the system. dickboyd@aol.com

dickboyd Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 13 Nov 2004 Location: California Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote dickboyd Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 09 Jan 2005 at 9:23pm
	Yep, it can't be done legally. So change the law. Just find another Juliette Lowe bill and add a rider to allow conversion of public roads to the private sector. Isn't anyone interested in knowing who Kenny Klinge is? quote: Originally posted by Bob [br]Question. What is the legal aspect of converting a taxpayer-paid road such as 395 from public access to toll? Obviously a different situation from the beltway proposal to add new concrete. A driver told me today that it cannot be done legally. Bob dickboyd@aol.com

wmcg698220 Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 18 Jan 2005 Location: Virginia Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote wmcg698220 Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 24 Jan 2005 at 9:19am
	quote: Originally posted by Admin [br]County closer to HOT lanes By LILLIAN KAFKA lkafka@manassasjm.com Wednesday, October 13, 2004 Elected officials in Prince William County are looking more closely at plans for pay-to-cruise interstate lanes and they have some commuter-friendly suggestions of their own. High-Occupancy Toll lanes, or HOT lanes, should be seriously considered, said members of the Board of County Supervisors on Tuesday after they heard a presentation by Gary Groat, director of project development for Fluor Virginia. Fluor Virginia, an Arlington-based transportation company, has submitted a public-private partnership bid to build 56 miles of HOT lanes from 14th Street in Washington, D.C., to the Massaponax interchange in Spotsylvania County. "We really have to examine these proposals because there is no federal or state funding for it," said Supervisor Chairman Sean T. Connaughton, R-at large. "This may be our only hope for road and transit improvements in this corridor." Fluor's $1 billion proposal would add a third lane to the reversible High-Occupancy Vehicle lanes that exist between the north- and south-bound lanes of Interstate 95. Instead of requiring two passengers, the new lanes would require three or more passengers per vehicle to avoid a toll charge. Groat said that in California, where HOT lane popularity is growing, more people are car-pooling to use the HOT lanes without having to pay. Fluor's design also calls for an additional 24 exit and entrance ramps with some for buses only. The design, Groat said, encourages bus transit systems. The Bus Rapid Transit system that is being encouraged with the plan would access existing and undeserved transit areas. Supervisor Maureen S. Caddigan, R-Dumfries, suggested that more park and ride lots be built in Prince William to take advantage of the HOT lanes. "It looks like there is a light at the end of the tunnel," Caddigan said about the proposal. VDOT doesn't have plans to extend the existing HOV lanes for years. Groat said that if environmental impact studies are done within 18 months, construction could begin by 2006. But the Commonwealth Transportation Board has to first decide if it wants HOT lanes, then who should build them. Fluor Virginia has made one of two proposals submitted to the Virginia Department of Transportation. Clark/SCC/KPRI made the other proposal and is scheduled to present it to Prince William officials later this year. The Board will send a letter to the Commonwealth Transportation Board to encourage it to choose HOT lanes and make it speedy. The Bus Rapid Transit could even be used on U.S. 1, Connaughton suggested. Instead of calling HOT lanes "Lexus Lanes" as critics sometimes refer to them, Groat suggested a new name. They're not ways for only the wealthy to bypass traffic jams on the general lanes, he said. "They should call them "Lumina Lanes," he said, since studies have shown that in California people from all social and economic strata use the HOT lanes. Single-passenger cars could pay up to $7 dollars or more to drive on them. Tolls are calculated per mile and the average toll could be about 15 cents per mile, Groat said. The tolls could change every six minutes and go up or down depending on congestion. If lanes are relatively clear, the charge is low. If they get congested, the rate increases, just like peak phone rates or electricity use times. Highway managers would be able to keep an eye on the lanes by monitoring about 150 cameras watching the entire stretch of road from Spotsylvania to the District. Only cars with Smart Tag or EZPass stickers could use the toll lanes because cash won't be accepted. High occupancy vehicles would also use a sticker to indicate that they shouldn't be charged. Also in the works is a Fluor proposal for a $693 million expansion of the Beltway HOV lanes between the Springfield Interchange and the American Legion Bridge. This story can be found at: http://www.potomacnews.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=WPN%2FMGArticle%2FWPN_BasicArticle&c=MGArticle&cid=1031778503231&path=!news&tacodalogin=no If HOT lanes were to become a reality...how long till they were operational? Months? Years?

SpongeBob Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 06 Oct 2004 Location: VA Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote SpongeBob Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 25 Jan 2005 at 2:27pm
	Dear wmcg698220: We are talking about toll booths being added to the lovely Shirley Highay corridor beginning in about 13 months. Goodbye Slugs! Nice to know you! See you in the traffic jam! Sponge B.