A Simple Way for VDOT to Test HOT

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   Everyone is wondering what will happen once they implement HOT. While I am vehemently against HOT on this road, I say before we turn our next 50 years over to Fluor on a monumental gamble, lets have VDOT try a test for a couple of months.  (Only if and when they plan to approve it anyway, which they are) Here it is--!

	No tolls, just have special electronic sign boards that allow HOV2 if they think the lanes can handle it, or SOVs if they think the lanes will handle it.  Everyone who gets in - even SOVs - will be able to go all the way to the Pentagon or DC, just as is proposed for HOT. It will be a MONUMENTAL DISASTER!! (True, it would be only on 2 lanes instead of "3" but will still prove the point)

	Why? For the same reason that "dynamic tolls" won't work.  You cannot change the rules fast enough and in such a way as to control flow on this system.  It is too inflexible due tolimited viable options even at the exit points. Once you realize you are getting congestion it is too late.

	Folks, they DO NOT know how dynamic tolling will work, even on the 234 to Pentagon section.  This is a 30 mile system and their operational experience is on much shorter systems, in areas where people have more options to bail out.

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Bob Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 14 Dec 2001 Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote Bob Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Topic: A Simple Way for VDOT to Test HOT Posted: 21 Jul 2005 at 1:27pm
	Everyone is wondering what will happen once they implement HOT. While I am vehemently against HOT on this road, I say before we turn our next 50 years over to Fluor on a monumental gamble, lets have VDOT try a test for a couple of months. (Only if and when they plan to approve it anyway, which they are) Here it is--! No tolls, just have special electronic sign boards that allow HOV2 if they think the lanes can handle it, or SOVs if they think the lanes will handle it. Everyone who gets in - even SOVs - will be able to go all the way to the Pentagon or DC, just as is proposed for HOT. It will be a MONUMENTAL DISASTER!! (True, it would be only on 2 lanes instead of "3" but will still prove the point) Why? For the same reason that "dynamic tolls" won't work. You cannot change the rules fast enough and in such a way as to control flow on this system. It is too inflexible due tolimited viable options even at the exit points. Once you realize you are getting congestion it is too late. Folks, they DO NOT know how dynamic tolling will work, even on the 234 to Pentagon section. This is a 30 mile system and their operational experience is on much shorter systems, in areas where people have more options to bail out.

SpongeBob Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 06 Oct 2004 Location: VA Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote SpongeBob Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 21 Jul 2005 at 1:52pm
	Nice idea, Bob, but they already know it would be a disaster, especially without the disincentive of the toll itself. No, they are counting on not having a lot of HOV-3 to contend with. It's pretty clearly going to be buses and SOV's. Do you remember hearing at the meeting about whether motorcycles would be allowed to travel on the lanes, free or not?

MDC Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 04 Dec 2002 Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote MDC Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 27 Jul 2005 at 8:04am
	I wonder if any of the proponents of HOT have mentioned the speed limit in the HOT lanes? If the lanes are narrower than standard lanes without much, if any, shoulder, the speed limit can't remain at 65MPH.

N_or_S_bound Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 20 May 2005 Location: VA Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote N_or_S_bound Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 27 Jul 2005 at 8:15am
	Nice MDC. That question is linked to the "refund" if you're unable to make the trip in a certain amount of time. What will that amount of time be? What speed limit will it be based on? How long will the private companies keep a decent speed limit in place when they're having to refund money because people can't make the trip in the designated time frame? Smoke and Mirrors. Follow the green for the answers to these and many other questions regarding HOT. NoSb SOV because you can, HOV because you care!

VA4ver Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 09 Feb 2005 Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote VA4ver Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 27 Jul 2005 at 11:57am
	I've been wondering about this HOT thing -- if this road was funded by tax payers' dollars over the years, will VA still use tax revenue to support this road IF (still can't say "when") it is handed over to an outside company? If so, isn't that double standard? Wonder if citizen groups could take the state to court to stop the hand over? Putting HOT to a test will only prove it won't work. 395 will end up just like 66 -- 5 clogged lanes. But then again, the people who think HOT will work are really only seeing that the $$$ will work for THEM. I wonder how soon it'll be before the State will place a commuter tax on NOVA residents.

Sheepish Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 20 May 2002 Location: VA Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote Sheepish Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 28 Jul 2005 at 3:24pm
	MDC, I went to the PWC transportation symposium on the 14th and did raise the issue of speed on the HOT lanes to the Clark and Fluor reps. I wanted to hear them define "optimal traffic flow" in the HOT lanes.... was it "optimal" with speeds in the HOT lanes only 5 - 10 mph faster than the main lanes?? The basic answer I got was they intend to maintain the speed limit. This is not realistic. With additional entrances and the extra traffic constantly merging on, or exiting off -- how in the world do you maintain that rate of speed when you have to slow down as they merge in front of you... which causes the car behind you to brake, causing the car behind that one to do the same, and so on.....? Also-- I wish I had my notes I took that night with me right now, because one of them made a comment which also disturbed me... without quoting him, it was something to the effect of they view most utilizers of HOT to be ones taking short trips, traveling 6 miles or less. Right..... say that in front of Prince William County commuters that travel 20+ miles ONE WAY.... it certainly wasn't what I wanted to hear! More indicators that they clearly do not understand our traffic problems.....

MDC Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 04 Dec 2002 Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote MDC Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 28 Jul 2005 at 9:30pm
	sheepish, Maybe the speed limit will be 35? :p

N_or_S_bound Members Profile Find Members Posts New Slug Joined: 20 May 2005 Location: VA Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote N_or_S_bound Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 29 Jul 2005 at 5:22am
	on a good day mebbe... NoSb SOV because you can, HOV because you care!